Learn me: so-called "ultra high performance" all-season tires

So, I'm trying to understand the difference in response/driving characteristics between an "ultra high performance" all-season vs let's say a "max performance" summer tire. Something akin to comparing a tire like the UHP Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06 Plus all-season (560tw) vs the "max performance" Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02 summer tire (340tw). I'm not looking for a 200tw competition tire, just something fun for the road. 

I have no doubts that the summer tire has considerably more grip than the all-season. I also have no doubt that the all-season will be less likely to kill me in the cold weather here in Colorado. 

For many years, I've subscribed to the summer/winter tire combo, at least on some of my cars. However with multiple vehicles in my garage/driveway, that's a pricey proposition, especially if I have at least 1 AWD/4WD vehicle equipped with some type of snow tire (I do). 

Essentially, I have 2 RWD vehicles (S2000 and 128i) that will never really see heavy snow (I have an AWD car for that), but I would like to be able to drive them (at least one of them) in the winter and if a few snowflakes start falling, I would prefer to avoid the white-knuckle inducing fear of trying to limp them back to the house in one piece. 

My question is: how much response/fun are you giving up going with a UHP all-season over a more street-friendly summer tire? How much softer (if any?) are the sidewalls? Will the all-season feel like a roly poly in the corners by comparison? Or will they feel similar until pushed to the limit? 

I'm not so much concerned with overall grip- I'm more concerned with feel and trying not to turn a scalpel into a blunt object. 


I'm eager to be learneded by the hivemind of all things tires. 

Tyre Reviews is an excellent YouTuber and has a good video on Conti's to watch.

https://youtu.be/QPv1w544PRg?si=xV-5kMC3aKkUJjPD
 

I have the DWS 06 Plus on my street-driven GTi, and for that purpose they are very good tires.  In absolute numbers, you'll give up some of everything compared to a full UHP tire in outright performance ... but I've found that it's not nearly as much as I would have thought.  Gone are the days of the nearly useless all seasons of yesteryear.  Plus, if you have temps under 30 degrees Fahrenheit, these won't become hard as stone and possibly crack.

They are no replacement for dedicated snows, but I don't need that as my my car only lives in Texas with an occasional road trip into New Mexico or to visit family in Illinois.

Even though some fanboys say "I did X amount of laps on track, and these were fine," these are not track tires.  
 

Great tires if used for their intended purpose though:  good comfort/noise levels, decent grip/feedback (maybe, I don't know, 85-90% of a summer season UHP tire?), and decent light winter use (1-3 inches of snow).

One more good video:  Tire Rack interviewing the Product Manager for the Continental tires.

https://youtu.be/gw9L5uFtSJU?si=AA5JsrmJgWzs_EVy
 

Also, this topic always introduces a potential for internet "that tire sucks, I always go with *whatever*."

I spent too much time going through reviews on Tire Rack and A LOT of other sources and I came to this conclusion:  the top tires in this category from Continental and Michelin, and perhaps Bridgestone, Vredestein, and Pirelli are all so close in performance that you can throw a blanket over them.  It comes down to brand perception, brand loyalty, and pricing.

It's a good time to be in the market for this type of street tire.

I'd try the General AS-05 or 07.

I've had the DWS06 on my Ralliart wagon, and the DWS06plus on our Mazda five. My impression was that they were my favorite all season tires I've ever owned. 
 

I have an ECS02 set on the civic, but I never had the DWS06plus on that car to do a direct comparison. 

In reply to Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) :

I have AS-05s on my e36. Only a few hundred miles on them but I am impressed. 

I had the General AS-05s on my MK7 GTI when I was still living in Wisconsin. They were my "three season" tire (I ran true snows when the real snow began falling) and they were great for that purpose. I also ran the Conti DWS06s on other cars and had a similar experience.

Definitely check Tire Rack's own tests between tires if there are any available for what you're looking at, as they will often comment on things like steering feel and responsiveness:

So far I'm about 10k into my DWS ownership.  To be fair, this has all been during spring/summer, but so far, I'm totally happy for street use.   I haven't been able to find the limit at all even going quite quick through on ramps and roundabouts, and I haven't experienced a bit of hydroplaning or discomfort no matter how hard it was pouring.

I won't be able to report on cold weather (other than some 20° mornings) until the fall/winter, but I wouldn't expect these to be horrible based on the wet characteristics of them.

I picked up my used GR86 in a small town on the Front Range of Colorado.  Its tires were toast and I was getting ready to cannonball 1600 miles to Florida.  The little local dealer could not get Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, but in 20 minutes he could get Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4.  I looked at the weather and it was raining all the way across Texas, so I pulled the trigger.

They seem to be noisy.  They are a great in the rain.  They probably will never wear out.  At TW 530 they do accent the tail happy aspect of the car.   And all winter I can take the car to the weekly lunch while other guys have their cars sequestered in warm shops so their tires won't crack.

I sort of know their limits, and the factory supplied Michelin Pilot Sport 4S might be a bit faster, but this is a DD and not being tracked.   A compromise for sure, but not a horrible one.

I had the DWS06 and ExtremeContact Sports on my FR-S and the 06s seemed a bit less responsive (completely understandable) but still had plenty of grip to play in the mountains. Running in autox on the same course, although different ambient temp due to different times of year, the 06s were about 1-3 seconds slower on a 45ish second course. I also tended to be a bit too aggressive and overdrive the 06s as well.

However I still run the newer DWS06+ on my ATS and Silverado 

I have been running Continentals on my cars. Great all around performance tire for the street that works ok in snow and the wet.  My M5 came with a set of Generals on it and they are definitely a step down in dry grip and sidewall stiffness. They are also louder.  I will be replacing the generals in the very near future as I greatly prefer the Continentals. 

I currently have Goodyear Eagle Exhilarate tires on the Forte GT's "3-season" wheels, mainly because with the amount and type of daily driving I do, I need something with some treadwear, and they were on sale at the time. This is my 2nd season with them, and so far, so good. They are at least as good as the Conti DWS's I used to love on my other cars. It's almost like they used that tire as a benchmark, and that's a good thing. Plenty of grip, and great in the rain. Worlds better than the Kumho Majesty Solus tires the car came with. 

I have driven back-to-back Elises with DWS (two different friends' cars) and ECS (mine), and the difference was significant. Turns that I considered very conservative with my tires exhibited slip with the DWS, to the point where I was thrown off guard a tad. It reminded me of a test-drive with a BRZ when it came stock with Prius tires, and I got a little slidey. Similarly, I ran DWS on my old JCW and couldn't get 10,000 miles out of a set because of the slip when trying to put down power. The most stark data point was when a shop put DWS on the front of my Elise when I ordered DW. This was back ten years ago when Conti had the DW instead of the ECS, and the ECS has been a couple steps forward since then. With all-seasons on the front and summers on the back, power-on understeer was crazy. I quickly changed to the correct tires of course, but I was able to easily demonstrate to my wife what understeer was, haha. 

This is all not to say the DWS is a bad tire, but it is very noticeably not as grippy as a summer tire. I run ECS year-round here in NC where we get a snow once a year or so, and the ECS handles it fine. I run below freezing relatively often and haven't died yet, I just don't lean on it when it is cold. Well, that's a lie. The roundabout near my work is really fun in the cold and wet with the ECS, haha. Part of the reason for selling the JCW was just that I didn't enjoy struggling to put the power down. I honestly might've held onto it longer if I had ran summers year-round like I did my E91. 

In the rain, the ECS is great, BUT you have less tread to start with so you get fewer miles before it gets too bald to handle rain. But, for as long as you have enough original tread, it will be fine. My wife commutes daily and year-round with her G8 GT on ECS and only started having issues in the rain when the tires were clearly getting low tread anyways. 

I ran the Vredestein UHP all-seasons on my VW GLI here in SE PA and they were quiet and great in the dry and the rain. They replaced a ragged pair of three-season Goodyears when I bought it so it was probably a great improvement just having tread. We didn't get much snow in the three or so years I had them on so I can't comment on that aspect but I would not be opposed to buying them again. 

I've had a host of tires on my E36. Best driving were the old BFG Sport Comp 2 but sadly a tire that no longer exists. The new Sport Comp2 AS is not quite as good of a summer performance tire but it really expands on the colder and wetter performance of the original.

Hey GRM editors. How about a tire test on this style of street tire? Maybe not lap time related. I am sick of the 200tw reviews in the magazine. Every three months it feels like the same tire test for the previous article. 

In reply to GTwannaB :

I would think track test, skid pad, street nvh, and maybe even economy comparison 

I have DWS06+'s on my Elantra N and honestly not a fan of them at all which makes me think I might have gotten a bad batch or something. It seems like everyone raves about them and says they're greeeeeaat. When comparing these to the OEM PS4S that the EN comes with. I find the PS4S to be better in every aspect (3 seasons that is, I don't drive this car in the winter). They're quieter, more comfortable, better steering feel, dry grip etc..

In my opinion, the UHP all season tires of the leading brands shine when compared to non-UHP all seasons.  
 

By definition the all season designation (even UHP) is still the most compromised segment of the tire market.

So, I probably could (should?) have mentioned I actually put a set of stock sized Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06 Plus all-season tires on my 128i a few weeks back. I'm now playing with tire pressures on them (see painfully long winded build thread: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/e82-128i-when-your-projected-track-car-turns-into-your-daily/258441/page6/) to try and get a bit of weight/feel back.

Ironically, the car had a set of Bridgestone RFT's on before the switch to the non-RFT Continentals. As soon as I put the Continentals on, the steering wheel felt lighter, it got a bit more floaty on the highway and the steering doesn't load up as well in the corners as it used to with RFT's. I chalked this up to the sidewalls on the Continentals not being as stiff as the RFT's, believing that the stiffness of the RFT's was masking deficiencies in the rear subframe and suspension... so, I added a set of Whiteline rear subframe bushing inserts to help stiffen up the rear, hoping the car would feel less floaty- mildly helpful, but no cigar... I then figured at ~137k miles that the OEM sport package shocks/struts had likely lost their magic and could use a refresh to get the car feeling planted again... so I swapped in a brand new Bilstein B12 setup (essentially Bilstein B8 shocks & Eibach Pro kit- similar rates as OEM Sport springs)- which, again, mildly helpful, some response did come back, but the steering was still a good bit lighter than before and didn't load up as much in the corners... which led me to doing math and playing with tire pressures, which again, mildly helpful, but the steering is still lighter than I would like. I'll still waiting on the new suspension to settle fully, at which point an alignment will be done to see if that helps (although I won't hold my breath, as the "new" ride height looks pretty much the same as my "old" ride height- so I'm not convinced it will be too out of whack). 

I think one of my biggest mistakes was not really reading the comparison tests on the Continentals- they have excellent reviews- but maybe that has more to do with their more soft-edged road manners that most consumers likely enjoy? I will agree that they ride smoothly and seem to have more grip than the RFT's that were on the car... but if I had to do it again, I would be inclined to pick up a tire with better steering response and weight. 

At this point, I'm trying to understand if the numbness/lightness in the steering is something I'm going to find in pretty much all non-RFT UHP all-seasons, or if it's just these specific tires? 

Based on the Tire Rack reviews, if I had to order tires again, I might have went with the Bridgestone Potenza Sport AS tires for their alleged extra steering weight/response... but I'm wondering if I might have felt the same about them? Do I have to run summers to get the weight/feel I'm looking for? Or can a set of UHP all-seasons still be pretty weighty/responsive? 

Since I would never bother taking a set of UHP all-seasons on track, I'm not so much concerned with a loss of grip (vs a summer tire), but more the loss of steering feel and weight. 


I will second GTwannaB's motion: GRM editors, any chance you would consider a (~300ish TW) summer vs UHP all-season comparison? I would happily write one myself if someone wanted to donate a set of Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02's to the cause! You know, for science and whatnot. 

In reply to roninsoldier83 :

I'm quoting the following passage from your post because it sums up the question I often have about online reviews and comments.

"I think one of my biggest mistakes was not really reading the comparison tests on the Continentals- they have excellent reviews- but maybe that has more to do with their more soft-edged road manners that most consumers likely enjoy?"

100% that, in my opinion.  
 

When I read the consumer reviews on Tire Rack and almost everyone describes their driving style as "spirited," I'm left wondering if it's truly spirited or not?

Example:  I have a non-car guy friend who was an early adopter of the Toyota Prius when those first came out.  He thought he had a sports car because he could chirp the tires under hard acceleration from a stop.  That car came with some narrow, high treadwear (hard tread) tires engineered for maximum fuel economy.  It would be easy to chirp such tires on a FWD car.
 

I just responded with a "wow, yeah" and moved on.

But I try to understand, as much as possible, a few things in those reviews:  1. what type of vehicle is being driven allegedly "spiritedly," 2.  did they mention what tire they came from?, and 3.  did they even describe what they mean by "spirited"?

So I admit I give more credence to a reviewer who goes into some detail about driving a 911, Miata, etc., that previously had a known performance-oriented tire, in the mountains or hills and how the car handles the hairpin turns on the switchbacks, than I do the reviewer who paints a picture of commuting to work and driving "spiritedly" 10 mph over the posted speed limit on a straight highway in a minivan which used to have bald el-cheapo tires from an obscure source.

So to end this ramble stream, agreed:  most consumers may purchase a UHP tire and report that it's phenomenal.  Whereas like just a few posts above, a member reports that on his performance car (Hyundai Elantra N coming from Michelin PS4S tires) I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to state what he did.  
 

The two different findings or opinions can be simultaneously true/valid.  I just have to decipher which of the comments are closer to my application of the tires.

/rambling 

roninsoldier83 said:

I will second GTwannaB's motion: GRM editors, any chance you would consider a (~300ish TW) summer vs UHP all-season comparison? I would happily write one myself if someone wanted to donate a set of Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02's to the cause! You know, for science and whatnot. 

This is a super-niche comparison.

Tires are a compromise.  It's already a huge trade-off to have the versatility of a Max Performance Summer 300tw (ECS02 and PS4S/PSS5).  Trading off even more performance to include cold/icey weather performance goes far beyond logical motorsports usage.  Given that we are "Grassroots Motorsports", I see little value in this for a wide audience.

The numb steering may also just be the fact the tires are new and you are (presumably) comparing to worn tires. Nearly all tires but *especially* all-seasons improve steering feel as they wear since they suffer from tread block squirm. The tread is tall and tends to be skinny sections, so the aspect ratio of each block is very, very high compared to the low and wide tread you get on a summer tire or the low and skinny blocks you get on worn all-seasons. 

Andy Hollis said:

roninsoldier83 said:

I will second GTwannaB's motion: GRM editors, any chance you would consider a (~300ish TW) summer vs UHP all-season comparison? I would happily write one myself if someone wanted to donate a set of Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02's to the cause! You know, for science and whatnot. 

This is a super-niche comparison.

Tires are a compromise.  It's already a huge trade-off to have the versatility of a Max Performance Summer 300tw (ECS02 and PS4S/PSS5).  Trading off even more performance to include cold/icey weather performance goes far beyond logical motorsports usage.  Given that we are "Grassroots Motorsports", I see little value in this for a wide audience.

I thought about the "Grassroots Motorsports" aspect of that, too, and I agree with you.

But I have point out that there are a lot of "Live Thread:  One Week with a ....." vehicle reviews that often feature a vehicle that is not a very good candidate for partaking in a motorsport of any kind let alone at the grassroot level.  

So the request may certainly be denied, but it's not out of the scope of the overall content here  that presents non-grassroots information, so I can understand why someone may ask.

In reply to cyow5 :

When I first got the Conti's, I noticed the often reported "squirm" when making a sharp turn at speed.  The car turned with no issue but the tires felt like they turned and then took a real "set" in the corner and everything was fine. 
 

I thought "well if that's a characteristic, it's different, but I can live with it."  The nice thing is that it went away.  It's like the tread and sidewall just stiffened up.  I chalked it up to the releasing agent being worn off, but your statement makes sense.

Andy Hollis said:

roninsoldier83 said:

I will second GTwannaB's motion: GRM editors, any chance you would consider a (~300ish TW) summer vs UHP all-season comparison? I would happily write one myself if someone wanted to donate a set of Continental ExtremeContact Sport 02's to the cause! You know, for science and whatnot. 

This is a super-niche comparison.

Tires are a compromise.  It's already a huge trade-off to have the versatility of a Max Performance Summer 300tw (ECS02 and PS4S/PSS5).  Trading off even more performance to include cold/icey weather performance goes far beyond logical motorsports usage.  Given that we are "Grassroots Motorsports", I see little value in this for a wide audience.

Super-niche. I agree. This is Grassroots Motorsports and I agree this test would not be in the context of motorsports. It probably wouldn't appeal to a huge audience (although it might surprise you- there are probably more people on the fence than you think- or at least more people that might read it just to see the real-world differences). 

I've read several of your tire-related tests over the years and would consider you one of the world's foremost experts on explaining all things tire related. I don't blame you for not wanting to waste your time on such an oddball comparison... but for the record, if you ever get bored and change your mind, I would love to hear your thoughts!