There are a good number of neons in our club that do pretty well, in both SL and prepared class. Of course, the trick is hiding your bright purple neon out of sight when you're not racing...
There are a good number of neons in our club that do pretty well, in both SL and prepared class. Of course, the trick is hiding your bright purple neon out of sight when you're not racing...
Yes , Neons make good ice racers.
AMEC has seven classes for ice racer, from Street Legal
to all out modifieds with specialy studded tires.
We have it so some one could start out with an SL , the upgrade to the SLM which allows ice race studded tires and a rollbar, then to the Sportman class with more modifications allowed.
Then you gor to the Modified classes in which it starts to get expensive.
One new thing this year is a street studded class in the SL classes.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: I planned on running the civic just because that is what I already have, and living in an on campus apartment I have no place to put a second car, otherwise I would be looking for a neon or saturn. From the sound of it I should refrain from putting my coilover sleeves + stiff springs in until spring, and just rock the stock springs for rallyX/ice racing. I had a feeling I should keep the rear bar, and loosing the front one altogether makes sense for ice. For tires I already have some 185 width general artimax's on 14 inch wheels, as much as I'd like to go wider, I would rather work with what I already have(unless this is a horrible ice racing tire, I know they are pretty good in the dirt/snow for rallyX). I don't expect to go out and win races right away, I just want to better my driving skills and have a fun, safe time doing it, so I'd like to keep spending to a minimum. I have a 4 point schroth rallye harness that I have been using for autoX, is that OK for AMEC? Or do I have to use the crappy auto belt that throws me around in the car? I have a snell helmet already, and I know I need to get a fire extinguisher. Is there anything else that I will need for the street legal class? Or anything you highly recommend? I saw something about spill blankets. I look forwards to meeting you at some events this winter, Mike! Just to clarify things, my name is Dick or Richard. We have two Mikes, one is our chief flagger and the other is a past ice racer, who might show up occasionally. Edit: hope to meet you as well James, I am in Rochester so I plan on making it out to some CNYIRA events as well. I too have a CRX(nowhere near stock), and I'd love to see what a fellow EF driver can do on the slippery stuff!
To answer a couple more questions. Yes , you can use your 4 point harness. You are required to have spill pillows which can be purchased at registration. You will also need a bucket and a shovel. AMEC is a very enviromental club and we have a good reputation with ENCON.
One reminder, Dedicted snow tires with the tree on mountain designation are allowed. No others.
iceracer wrote: To answer a couple more questions. Yes , you can use your 4 point harness. You are required to have spill pillows which can be purchased at registration. You will also need a bucket and a shovel. AMEC is a very enviromental club and we have a good reputation with ENCON. One reminder, Dedicted winter tires with the tree on mountain designation are allowed. No others. No exceptions.
No white cars, right?
Copper280z wrote:wrongwheeldrive wrote:It lacks......character...Copper280z wrote: I keep being harassed to buy a purple neon though.http://rochester.craigslist.org/cto/3319587216.html Someone convice Copper that this is a good idea so I can rallyX the E36 M3 out of it this winter with him
Loud as all get out exhaust with a Barney or IluvU vanity plate and call it good.
I have nearly 2 decades of ice racing up here in the great white north in all manner of cars and tire types.The civic is one of the best fwd cars,they put power down very well and the entire balance can be tuned really well.I ran a '91 civic si to class and overall street studded honours in 2010,my set-up is to keep the stock rear sway bar but remove the front(dedicated cars up here-no drive to and from with them).I used integra springs to bump the rates a little,stock alignment in the rear with camber adjustable up front.I would run staggered camber settings depending on the course,most are biased to more left/right turns so a little negative on the outside front and 0 on the inside front and 3/8" front toe out. Up here we do standing starts so finding a balance of the right amount of ballast to get off the line but still not wash the front in the turns.For me approx 25lbs behind each headlight that stayed for every race combined with another 30lb of weight that I put on whatever side was the inside front corner for more of the turns-it hung just under the headlight on a threaded post welded to the bumper bracket.Also if you need to use the ebrake to get it to turn you need to do more work with the chassis,yanking the ebrake gets the ass around for sure but it also drags the car off line and is slower overall. EVERYTHING else must be lightened or removed.If you focus on getting the front tires to stay flat on the ice as much as possible(hence the above set-up)the need to go to an lsd is negated.Welded diffs can help some cars but its usually a crutch for a poor chassis set-up,if the chassis is set-up decently both front wheels will remain fairly evenly loaded and spin together.Welded diffs tend to screw up corner entry more than they are worth. For RWD the best diff bar none is the factory open diff,tried LSD and welded and both ruined the car to the point I swapped diffs in the dark at 6am and -31 degrees.Yes that sucked but not nearly as bad as driving the car with the lsd or welded rear. This the civic,the flat black geo is my wife-gets a little boring in the middle puts gets MUCH more interesting fromabout the 6:30 mark.
http://youtu.be/AafO67gtb3U
This is what the geo became, http://youtu.be/w6B5sAsFu94
In the low powered, non-studded tire classes, what is preferable: short whellbase or long wheelbase?
Shorter the better-all classes imo
Our fwd classes up here are divided by wheelbase,the shorter cars in each class end up at the front nearly always.
In reply to kevlarcorolla:
Excellent info, thank you. And I've seen video of your geo before, it is AWESOME! 
My car is a DX, so it came with no rear bar. It's either my 24mm or none :(
It is also my only street car, and my summer autocross car(what I'm actually good at), so ice-racing specific mods(integra springs, front ballast, extreme lightening) are not going to happen.
I've rallycrossed before, and my car does not need the e-brake to rotate(plus I agree that is a crutch), it in fact turns in very nicely, even on pavement. For starters I will probably just run the bar at full-soft, and go up if needed.
So it looks like my setup will be as follows:
Koni shocks
big rear bar at softest position
Stock Springs
Fire Extinguisher
Harness
185-something-14 general artimax snow tires
0'd out alignment(for DDability)
No front bar/disconnect when arriving at race.
I suppose that is a plenty fine starting point to get out there and learn how to go fast on ice.(That or convincing copper to buy that neon or the $400 fiero for sale near us :D)
Sounds like a good approuch,rememeber to set the konis nice and soft as well.The rear bar may be too much,if its too loose-too loose means the rear keeps drifting long after the throttle is back on,try unhooking one end and adjust with rear pressure.
I've seen lots of guys drive too hard(myself included)too much of the time,when you watch me in the civic you'll notice I don't buzz the engine hard and in fact I start in 2nd gear with barely any throttle and run 3rd gear all the way around and thats with street studs.For non studded you want to be a gear high usually to not overpower the tires.Try and picture spinning the tires only slightly faster than your travelling at all times.
It takes most people awhile to get good on the ice mostly due to the timing thing-you need to set the car up for the turn EARLY if your going to hit the right line but the trick is getting the timing right.Too early means you end up in the inside bank and or your roof,too late means you end up in the outside bank usually just stuck and hoping someone else doesn't use your wicked awesome line into the back of your car.
Above all else have fun,its a blast.
That Neon looks to clean for ice racing!
fidelity101 wrote: Has anyone had any experience with a welded diff for ice racing by chance. I have a factory clutch LSD and I've been thinking of getting a spare diff to weld because last winter I was only able to do about 1-2 miles of racing until the clutches heated up to the point where it was 1 wheel peel.
Just noticed the part about the diff heating up,what the hell kinda tires are you using to get that kind of grip??. On the ice the clutch pack diff should simply lock instantly since theres nearly no difference in grip side to side and never unlock so no heat.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: I've rallycrossed before, and my car does not need the e-brake to rotate(plus I agree that is a crutch), it in fact turns in very nicely, even on pavement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKEp_NL3Do0
"Turns in very nicely" is code for "I've almost lost the ass end more times than I care to talk about in a nearly stock civic" on pavement, on star specs and on slicks. But I do have to say, when you get it right, it's very good. Even my noob ass manages to do pretty well with it.
On a serious note, what's the average cost to get going?
$50 entry
have a helmet
have snow tires
have a bucket+shovel
What else?
Also, it says in the rules all interior pieces must be there, I'm missing the glove box because it broke when I did the blower motor last year. I'm assuming it's not a big deal, but since I'm asking noob questions I figured why not.
kevlarcorolla wrote:fidelity101 wrote: Has anyone had any experience with a welded diff for ice racing by chance. I have a factory clutch LSD and I've been thinking of getting a spare diff to weld because last winter I was only able to do about 1-2 miles of racing until the clutches heated up to the point where it was 1 wheel peel.Just noticed the part about the diff heating up,what the hell kinda tires are you using to get that kind of grip??. On the ice the clutch pack diff should simply lock instantly since theres nearly no difference in grip side to side and never unlock so no heat.
studded firestone winterforces 205/55/16, most of the studs are missing now (rallycross) I'll be removing the remainder to run in rubber on ice class this season. We didn't have a season last year and the year before the car wasn't ready so I never removed the road studs and we mostly just played around on the ice and helped get comfortable with the setup.
its 86 rx7 with factory clutch LSD. I would run 3rd gear in my mid-rpm because up top is all wheel speed, lots of sideways.
The N/A LSD? They suck pretty badly, so I can see it happening, I have 2 and they have almost no preload left, the T2 diff I have still feels pretty good though. Shimming the N/A diff might do it some good.
Copper280z wrote: The N/A LSD? They suck pretty badly, so I can see it happening, I have 2 and they have almost no preload left, the T2 diff I have still feels pretty good though. Shimming the N/A diff might do it some good.
mine works fine for rallycross but long duration usage in excessive differentiation conditions makes it an open diff, the diff has 100k+ miles on it and some serious abuse so I'm not surprised.
I've heard of people putting in an extra clutch disc for more grabby, I may try that whenever I feel its on it last leg.
My point was that on anything less than menards/bolts there isn't really enough grip difference to actually make the diff do any work.My open diff in a rwd corolla was full on drift while the throttle was on every lap of every race in the street stud class,the lsd/weled diffs I tried offered 0 advantage when the throttle was on and a major disadvantage anytime the throttle was lifted.
kevlarcorolla wrote: My point was that on anything less than menards/bolts there isn't really enough grip difference to actually make the diff do any work.My open diff in a rwd corolla was full on drift while the throttle was on every lap of every race in the street stud class,the lsd/weled diffs I tried offered 0 advantage when the throttle was on and a major disadvantage anytime the throttle was lifted.
Upon throttle lift, is my fear with using a welded diff. For the sake of seat time, cheapness, and lazyness I'm just going to stick with my diff.
Copper280z wrote:wrongwheeldrive wrote: I've rallycrossed before, and my car does not need the e-brake to rotate(plus I agree that is a crutch), it in fact turns in very nicely, even on pavement.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKEp_NL3Do0 "Turns in very nicely" is code for "I've almost lost the ass end more times than I care to talk about in a nearly stock civic" on pavement, on star specs and on slicks. But I do have to say, when you get it right, it's very good. Even my noob ass manages to do pretty well with it. On a serious note, what's the average cost to get going? $50 entry have a helmet have snow tires have a bucket+shovel What else? Also, it says in the rules all interior pieces must be there, I'm missing the glove box because it broke when I did the blower motor last year. I'm assuming it's not a big deal, but since I'm asking noob questions I figured why not.
Club membership, $20
the missing glovebox cover probably won't matter but maybe you could find one in the junk yard. Would give a better impression.
fidelity101 wrote:kevlarcorolla wrote:studded firestone winterforces 205/55/16, most of the studs are missing now (rallycross) I'll be removing the remainder to run in rubber on ice class this season. We didn't have a season last year and the year before the car wasn't ready so I never removed the road studs and we mostly just played around on the ice and helped get comfortable with the setup. its 86 rx7 with factory clutch LSD. I would run 3rd gear in my mid-rpm because up top is all wheel speed, lots of sideways.fidelity101 wrote: Has anyone had any experience with a welded diff for ice racing by chance. I have a factory clutch LSD and I've been thinking of getting a spare diff to weld because last winter I was only able to do about 1-2 miles of racing until the clutches heated up to the point where it was 1 wheel peel.Just noticed the part about the diff heating up,what the hell kinda tires are you using to get that kind of grip??. On the ice the clutch pack diff should simply lock instantly since theres nearly no difference in grip side to side and never unlock so no heat.
Winterforce with out studs suck on ice.
In reply to iceracer:
I'm not surprised but its what I got to work with until I can spring for a cage and menards.
Looked back at ice racing in Winnipeg, MB back in the early 90's. The non-stud winning car was a civic with dual wheels on the front. It was odd and quick. Looked for pictures online, but failed. I did watch some racing:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrMantario
If anyone is considering ice racing, Time Steven's excellent Introduction to Ice Racing is an excellent start.
http://www.autoblog.com/tag/introductiontoiceracing
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