Learn me: Street-legal track beater

If you want an E36 M3, buy a good one. Buying one at a bottom of the barrel price is a false economy. You'll end up spending more to prep the car for track work than you would have saved to begin with. As a previous post said--- there are plenty of track-prepped E36 chassis cars out there. Buy one that already has had the cooling system and bushings replaced. The factory re-inforced the subframe mounting points on the M cars---- but did not on the non Ms. IIRC. You may want to look out for that if you are looking at a non-M.

Also--- start slowly. A bone stock E36 M3 is capable and fun on track. I wouldn't go crazy with coil-overs, stiff springs and a gutted interior until the track-day bug really hits. My 97 M3 has stock springs, with a bigger front bar, Konis and a few chassis re-inforcements. (X-Brace and upper strut bar) It's a pleasure to daily drive over all kinds of surfaces, but it also is a hoot on track. Keep in mind a great track car is bound to be lousy on the street--- be realistic about how much time the car will spend on track vs. the street, and modify accordingly.

And if you fit in a Miata---- start there. There really isn't a better choice for a beginning track day car.

maj75 wrote: Guys are always moving up to faster cars. Look to buy a sorted car that does track duty. I know of 3 fully sorted E36 M3s that sold for less than $8000. One of them was mine. The market for a track prepped car isn't that great. Ironically, the more track prepped, the smaller the market. If you can live with no AC, cruise control, stereo or sound deadening on your drive to the track, you can find some pretty good deals. Shop CL locally. Don't buy a car you have never seen. If you live in any decent sized metropolitan area with race tracks in the vicinity, the cars will show up on CL.

It won't be used for much other than driving to/from the track, so I can live with pretty much anything creature comfort-related.

I'll keep an eye on my local CL and go see what's out there. Really appreciate the advice and you sharing your experience. :)

maj75 wrote: Another piece of good advice that I learned, "Don't take a car to the track that you are not prepared to lose". Accidents happen, your insurance won't cover it unless you buy special track coverage.

I think that's why I was trying to keep the budget unrealistically low - I figured the less I had spent, the less bummed out I'd be if I stuffed it into a wall of tires.

maj75 wrote: When you try to go on a shoestring, it's no fun. You will be constantly worrying about how much it going to cost to fix the stuff you will break. And how you are going to explain it to your SO. My advice is sit down with the SO and come up with an annual budget for your hobby. That way there are no unpleasant surprises. When you run out of money for the year, you wait for next year;)

I think that's the real bottom line here - I need to come up with a block of X dollars (where X is much larger than my original post indicated) that I am willing to set on fire and that the wife has signed off on, and when that's been exhausted, go play iRacing or something for the rest of the year.

Thanks for the post maj, very much appreciated.

Something else to consider: I'd stick with the herd. I know we all like to be different, but buying/building a common track car has some big benefits:

If it breaks at the track, someone is more likely going to have the parts/knowledge to help fix.

And when you're done with it, odds are stronger that someone will want to buy it.

Joe Gearin wrote: If you want an E36 M3, buy a good one. Buying one at a bottom of the barrel price is a false economy. You'll end up spending more to prep the car for track work than you would have saved to begin with. As a previous post said--- there are plenty of track-prepped E36 chassis cars out there. Buy one that already has had the cooling system and bushings replaced. The factory re-inforced the subframe mounting points on the M cars---- but did not on the non Ms. IIRC. You may want to look out for that if you are looking at a non-M.

I think that'll be the path I take if I don't fit in a Miata. And I agree on the false economy thing - after reading all the posts here, I think I've been disabused of my dumb ideas around buying a "cheap" M3.

Joe Gearin wrote: And if you fit in a Miata---- start there. There really isn't a better choice for a beginning track day car.

I'm going to find out tonight! Found one with very thin low seats and a rollbar and whatnot. I'm bringing my helmet along and we'll see if I pass the broomstick test. I am assuming the answer will be "no", but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

jmwr wrote:

Joe Gearin wrote: If you want an E36 M3, buy a good one. Buying one at a bottom of the barrel price is a false economy. You'll end up spending more to prep the car for track work than you would have saved to begin with. As a previous post said--- there are plenty of track-prepped E36 chassis cars out there. Buy one that already has had the cooling system and bushings replaced. The factory re-inforced the subframe mounting points on the M cars---- but did not on the non Ms. IIRC. You may want to look out for that if you are looking at a non-M.

I think that'll be the path I take if I don't fit in a Miata. And I agree on the false economy thing - after reading all the posts here, I think I've been disabused of my dumb ideas around buying a "cheap" M3.

Joe Gearin wrote: And if you fit in a Miata---- start there. There really isn't a better choice for a beginning track day car.

I'm going to find out tonight! Found one with very thin low seats and a rollbar and whatnot. I'm bringing my helmet along and we'll see if I pass the broomstick test. I am assuming the answer will be "no", but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

An option to consider if you're comfortable with everything else about the car besides the roll bar height is modifying the bar. You may not be able to do that and get a top on the car but it's not like you're going to have to drive it in the rain often. If you do get caught out then, you'll just get wet.

Any comments on this GTI? Just got a call from the owner who is a NASA instructor who uses it for HDPEs. Already smogged and registered and built out, used for teaching kids to race, fits my budget.

Only thought I have with that one is that I'd need to put a second seat in for the instructor.

Also planning on having a sit-down with the wife today to come up with an actual racing budget. Just posted the car above because dude just called me like 5 minutes ago. :)

I had a track rat Civic. It was brilliant, and I mean BRILLIANT on track, but I hated it. The car was absurdly loud, stiff, had no AC or radio. This meant that the only place it didn't suck was on track. Driving too and from sucked. Taking it to the store for milk sucked. Looking at it sitting in my driveway because I didn't want to drive it sucked. I eventually sold it to a friend who loves it all the time and every day. It's not that the car doesn't work how it is, just that I found out that what I want out of a dual purpose car isn't what the car was. For me (in Texas) AC is a necessity. Some level of sound deadening is a necessity. And from now on, for track stuff, a minimum of a half cage is a necessity.

First of all, JMWR, welcome to this forum. A lot of sage advice thus far.

Second, I'm a little curious about your performance driving experience as it might have a bearing on where might be the best place to start.

Third, you mentioned you might want to sell your initial purchase in the future and move on W2W spec class racing. Is it your intent to build a RR/Track car yourself or purchase a track only car eventually? IOW wI'll you be doing your own wrenching and prep?

Answers to the above questions have a lot of bearing on what I would recommend for you. I started out autocrossing after having raced motorcycles on dirt and pavement. Then I road raced a variety of cars for about 25 years. I got tired of the tremendous amount of preparation time road racing took and in my old age started going to hpde. Alas, I had a stroke so both road racing and hpde are now out for me. So I'm stuck with a little local auto Crossing to whet my driving appetite.

Where do you see yourself in five more years with the automotive hobby?

jmwr wrote: I'm going to find out tonight! Found one with very thin low seats and a rollbar and whatnot. I'm bringing my helmet along and we'll see if I pass the broomstick test. I am assuming the answer will be "no", but I am hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

The important thing is to look at how the seat is mounted. Going from a factory seat on sliders to a thin race seat bolted to the floor with the floor modified to remove the rear seat mounts will cut 3.5 to 4 inches off the height. Mine is set up that way, it's as low as you can go without cutting out the floor and welding in a lower floor pan. I live in Santa Clara and am happy to meet up somewhere to let you test-sit in it if you like (car isn't for sale, but it'll give you an idea what's possible).

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: First of all, JMWR, welcome to this forum. A lot of sage advice thus far.

Thanks! Definitely a lot of excellent advice, bit overwhelming but very welcoming. :)

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: Second, I'm a little curious about your performance driving experience as it might have a bearing on where might be the best place to start.

My experience is very minimal - some autocross and that's it.

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: Third, you mentioned you might want to sell your initial purchase in the future and move on W2W spec class racing. Is it your intent to build a RR/Track car yourself or purchase a track only car eventually? IOW wI'll you be doing your own wrenching and prep?

My intent is to get my feet wet with this car, and then eventually sell it and purchase/build a track-only car in a year or two.

We are planning on buying a house next year with space for a track-only vehicle and a tow vehicle. I currently have a 911 as a daily driver so practicality for this car only matters insofar as it has to get me the two or three hours it takes to get to Buttonwillow/Thunderhill/Sonoma/Laguna Seca.

As for doing prep myself, that is out of the question for the time being do to my lack of space and skill. I am starting night classes in the fall at a local automotive school to pick up some of the basics that I am currently lacking. Hopefully by the time I've outgrown this car I'll have both more ability and more space to work on a purpose-built track car.

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: Where do you see yourself in five more years with the automotive hobby?

My hope is that in five years I'll have the driving and mechanical skill to run in something like Spec E30, Spec Miata, Spec Racer Ford or Formula Mazda. We are fortunate in that we have just gone through a company acquisition so by then finances will not be much of an issue.

In reply to jmwr:

OK....that gives a good perspective. BTW, I'm a 911 guy also but mine is an older 911 carrera. Was my DD for several years but building vintage rally replica... had to raise the ride height so I can get in and out of it post stroke.

I would suggest buying something along the lines of a E36 328 is with manual transmission. Make sure the stock suspension is sound, put some decent brake pads on it and a set of 200 TW tires and go learn. Something in the 3 to $5,000 range. Don't make a bunch of mods and waste your money. Kept relatively stock it will be easier to sell in a year. Believe me a relatively modern car is far more capable then you or I will ever be. Drive that for a year while you're getting your feet wet and then essentially sell it for what you have in it in a year or so. That way you don't have to worry about maintaining it at the track and always thrashing on it. You can concentrate on a very steep learning curve and having fun. Starting out with a car with high performance limits will mask mistakes you make and will keep you from really learning the basics.

By this time 18 months from now you'll have a much better idea of what is right for you. The range of road racing you are considering it's pretty wide. Lot of difference between an E30 spec racer and a formula Mazda. While I really enjoyed my amateur road racing career, it's like a drug they don't make, on average I spent 50 hours working on my car for every 30 minutes I was on the racetrack. So unless you have the coin to arrive and drive amateur road racing almost demands that you enjoyed tinkering with the car rather than driving it on the track. LOL

Good luck.

/>In reply to jmwr:

For what you are describing, I'll recommend Sprint Karts. A new LO206 powered Margay or Eagle is right in your price range, Is a ton of fun, and nowhere near the cost of consumables.

In reply to chada75:

Yeah....but he's 6' 4" tall

Lots of good advice hear; I'm also on the keep the car reliable & safe. I happen to be an advocate of low powered cars because you learn much more.

As an instructor I routinely tell students to stick the car in 3rd gear so we can concentrate on fundamentals, I will not be encouraging you to go "faster" I want students learning why the turn in points, apexes and exit point are where they are. Learning how to rotate the car using trail braking or throttle steering (stop making all the steering corrections and learn to put the car on a trajectory). Train your eyes so that you open up your field of vision so you're viewing the turn point, apex and exit all at once etc. It's possible to learn all of this in a Camry. Your choice of car at this point isn't that important beyond, as mentioned, it being reliable and decent to drive.

I've driven everything model Porsche from 356 to GT3, every version of Corvette from 72 to 2016, various 700 Hp Vipers as well as racing everything from Showrom Stock Miata to D-Sports Racer (now SCCA P2). I tell people all,the time a Miata is the most fun car you'll ever drive.We have $3500 in my son's 91 Miata it's stock except for Spec Miata suspension and the AC even works. Of course you need to fit.

I like the Golf but I'd want to make sure he still has the passenger seat as you'll need that. This car could also be morphed over to your wheel to wheel car.

Other suggestions would be an Acura Integra, Sentra SER, Mazda Protege or any other hot hatch. They're light and easy on tires.

Now as for your eventual race car choice; while I love open wheelers (currently I have a Novakar Formula 500) they're not accepted and most track days. I'd go with a sports racer if possible. Also do not rule any thing out. My wheel to wheel racing is done in vintage with my Datsun, one of my competitors bought an original Spec Racer (originals were Renault powered) these are widely accepted at both vintage and track days.

For the longest time I was the king of budget racing, our local SCCA events were double regionals, I would only do Saturday's race, ran on used race tires and only did 4 races a year. My season also included 6-8 auto-crosses and 3-4 track days. I did this for between $1500 to $2000. This was with our Datsun 1200.

These days I do 2 vintage weekends 4 track days with the Datsun and buy new Hoosiers once a year; I get this done for $3200-3500. After 30 years we've got $8500 in the car ( I save every reciept) I managed to make the top 5 overall and at track days I run the intermediate group (car makes 105 whp) and generally run faster than 3/4 of the group. I use the F500 for autocross and spend $1200 for the 6-8 events I do. I have $4000 into that car.

My total for the 12 to 14 events is $4400 to $4700. I have a 1990 e250 Coachman class B camper van tow vehicle (7k in the Van with $400 a year to run including insurance and registration) My open trailer is a single axle tilt that cost me $500 over a decade ago. The Datsun is 1600lbs and the F500 is 550lbs so the small trailer works.

So basically I have 20K (Van, trailer and 2 race cars) in vehicles and spend $450 a month racing. Note 3 years ago I was shopping for a 911 but instead but a Subaru Outback instead (we drive a lot of dirt roads) because that freed up money to buy and race the Formula 500.

JMWR....read the linked article in the thread on here titled "MODERN DAY TRACK JUNKIE"...It's a perfect synopsis of the slippery slope you're about to undertake.

Just to put a book note on this - I would run EVERY event you can with NASA-Norcal @ Sonoma (and ignore other tracks and groups until you feel good there) - their instructors are amazing and they WANT to see you go fast safely. Every stage HPDE 1-4 is meant to teach you a very particular skill set until you get into TT or W2W.

There isn't a meaner or better teacher that I've ever been to than Sonoma. It's walls and off camber turns everywhere - hidden flag stations - no good passing zones - and no (real) straight worth a damn. But any car can be fast there - look at the spec miata times vs what most "fast drivers in fast cars" put up in the HPDE classes - it's a technical beast with a TON to teach you. It makes every other track feel like you hit the easy button (that I've been to, YMMV). If you don't look ahead and avoid tunnel vision, it's impossible to run well there.

All that said - it's not scary if you use your head. Build up speed slowly and listen to the instructors - they know what's up.

Hope to see you out there the 20/21.

End book note

In a more relevant statement:

That golf looks awesome. In CA smog legal on newer and non SB100 vehicles is pretty big issue. FWD is pretty fantastic at sonoma when you learn to drive it. It makes those high speed S's and off camber corners easier to figure out (without spinning ;) ). Last time I was out with SpeedSF I was complimented twice on how well my (bone stock) MS3 rotated (You know, the car everyone says can only understeer?) by people that were chasing me (both s2000's btw, so quite a compliment).

In reply to accordionfolder:

I'm stoked to go out on the 20/21! We need to check our calendar and make sure it's clear but I am 90% sure I'll be there - I'll let you know what's up via email.

Glad you think the Golf looks awesome, I do too! Wife and I sat down and priced out what it'd cost to build it starting at a comparable stock GTI and it came out to more than twice as much just for the parts and car. We've talked about the money thing and have a plan and we're going to drive down to LA this weekend and if all goes well we're going to drive it back! It also ticks the "gets Jeff excited" box.

Sonoma sounds like quite the beast - pretty sweet to live so close to a track like that!

In reply to Tom1200:

Funny you have a Outback, that's what my wife drives! Great minds think alike. :)

Yeah, as much as I love open-wheelers I think something else would be more practical - I like the idea of a sports racer. Probably getting ahead of myself though. I'll keep an eye open at track days and see what's out there, and keep an open mind as you suggest.

Some great ideas there for keeping costs down. I appreciate the detailed response!

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:

Im 6'3 and a guy that races with us is 6'7".