Learn Me: Vintage Racing in the Southeast

A little history, always been a gearhead, but a much better wrench than driver (consistent, but too conservative to ever be fast).  Raced an old Reynard FF with the FRCCA for a number of years but that was almost 15 years ago.  Loved just about everything about that Reynard, and enjoyed the FRCCA but they run now with EMRA which isn't practical anymore from a location perspective.  About 5 years ago, purchased a clean E36 and have been running HPDEs with various groups in the Raleigh area (mostly NASA-SE, but some THSCC, BMWCCA, TNIA, etc).  It's evolved into a nice track car with some nice parts / pieces and will get sold to free up a garage spot.  

I'd like to go back to wheel-to-wheel racing, but I won't race with NASA-SE.  Not a cultural fit for me, different strokes for different folks, so not knocking the organization or the people.  From the sidelines, I see too much overly aggressive driving and contact seems the norm, not the exception. I get that is what some people want as evidenced by the full race fields.

So the goals:

- A dual purpose car that could race in vintage but also run some local HPDEs for track time and to hang out some local gear heads in my circle of friends for that guys weekend.   That rules out open wheel.

- I'd like something has "the feel" of my old Formula Ford.  While the E36 is a fun track car, it doesn't have that connected to the road feel of the FF

- A group that still has DIY guys in it.  I get that there will be a contingent of Prevost motorhomes with stacker trailers, or people who arrive and drive with a shop in Vintage Racing.  But I also don't want to shunned for doing my own work, and arriving with a Tundra and an enclosed trailer, and sleeping in the trailer.  And grilling up some burgers and dogs under the canopy in the evening.

- With HPDEs I've run VIR (closest by far to home), CMP, RRR, even made the run to Daytona. I'm not retired so taking a week off to tow to Watkins while sounds found isn't too practical yet. 

- A culture where people race hard if desired, but also aren't going to dive bomb you in a corner, bump draft, etc.  Let's call it a more gentleman (gentlewomen) form of racing.  To me the hobby is about wrenching on cars, hanging out with friends at the track, and enjoying improving my skills on track.  I'm not looking to do a high risk on track maneuver to get a  2 dollar trophy cup with a 2 on it verses a 3. I'm almost positive I'm never going to race F1 at this point :-)

I'm initially thinking that some form of sports racer best fits the bill.  Maybe a Gen2 SRF, or a even a SRR, but I've heard parts availability for the Renault can be an absolute bear.

So a couple of questions:

1. Any input on the vintage groups that fit this mind-set and race more than 1 or 2 races a year in the SE?

2. Any input on car thoughts?

Thanks!

Look into HSR ...they have a Heavy SE schedule.  I know them only through association with Classic Mororsports/The Mitty, but a couple of staff that I know are most excellent folk. 
The couple of events I have attended have been wonderful and I have hopes of running with them one day. 
sounds like a fit to me. 

Regarding a car, I also think maybe a sports racer?  I can't think of anything else vintage and obtainable by mortals  that's going to get you close to the nimble, direct connection you seek. 
. Looking forward to hearing from others. 
 

In reply to wake74 :

In general the older the car the more gentleman/woman  the driver. Even when that driver is practically a teenager. 
   ( probably just brought up right). 
Not knowing your budget but you might look at Formula A. ( Chevy small block, not Atlantic )  Can Am  cars.  ( earlier small block Chevy, space frame cars)   Over the last decade I've  seen some decently priced ones that need little other than a refreshing to go back on track. 
  The later big Block cars are still getting silly money. 
In general anything 1972 and older will be pretty well accepted by any group.  Groups that run the newer stuff tend to have some of the sort of driver you're trying to avoid.  

Oops, rereading your post, you don't want open wheel.  
    You might look at cars of the golden era. 1960 or older.  There are a lot of one offs out there chassis from something and a fiberglass body. 
    My Black Jack was just such a car. Built on a shortened JaguarXK150 chassis with an aluminum and fiberglass body looked somewhat like a JaguarD type.  All 4 corners were adjustable,  quick change rear end, easy to work on, reliable as an anvil. Fantastic brakes.  
     There are thousands of Devin bodies out there.  Including more than a few tube frame ones. Heck you might get an invite to Monterrey. That's me leading almost $200 million dollars worth of cars 

frenchyd said:

In reply to wake74 :
Not knowing your budget but you might look at Formula A. ( Chevy small block, not Atlantic )  Can Am  cars.  ( earlier small block Chevy, space frame cars)   Over the last decade I've  seen some decently priced ones that need little other than a refreshing to go back on track. 
  The later big Block cars are still getting silly money. 
In general anything 1972 and older will be pretty well accepted by any group.  Groups that run the newer stuff tend to have some of the sort of driver you're trying to avoid.  

Should have listed budget.  Ideally in the 15-20k price range, which rules out anything CanAm (Not convincedI have the skillset to drive one anyways), and likely anything with any true provenance.

The confusing thing to me (okay there are more than one), is what defines Vintage.  I seem to recall GRM or CM doing an article recently about modern "vintage" cars, and even a first series Miata is now vintage eligible.  That just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm just getting old.  I seem to recall my 83/84 Reynard not being vintage eligible as it was a CFF, due to having inboard suspension on one end.

Thanks for the input so far!

It seems to me that "vintage" can mean a lot of things, from the cars that were vintage 50 years ago, to modern cars that are about 10 years aged out of the current competition formula. Hence why they have lots of run groups, I guess, to keep them sort of grouped with similar brethren.

In reply to slowbird :

Exactly. Most prewar cars are grouped together but the original owners have gone.  Newer owners understand the risks involved and the value of the cars. Thus race like Ladies and Gentlemen. in fact most of the golden age drivers/cars do as well. The 13/13 rule is strictly enforced.  
 Post 72 things get a little more dodgy.   Depending on the organization that 13/13 rule tends to stay in the bag.  Thus indirectly encouraging overly aggressive driving. 
    Mind you, racing does involve some risk, but there is a world of difference between friends who know each other dicing hard, using skill and judgement to avoid damage. And the new guy driving boneheadedly.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to slowbird :Mind you, racing does involve some risk, but there is a world of difference between friends who know each other dicing hard, using skill and judgement to avoid damage. And the new guy driving boneheadedly.  

That I understand, friends racing hard and clean, I get it.  Going out knowing contact is likely, and that 2 or 3 cars get serious damage, or written off a weekend, I struggle with.

I race in both SVRA and HSR in the southeast.  Both fit the bill for what you are looking for.  Many, many guys/gals, including me haul their stuff on open trailers with pickup trucks and many sleep in the trailer or even put up a tent.  It is about as grassroots as you are going to find.  Yeah, there are the big rig setups there too, but they do their thing and the average guy does his.  I come from a drag racing background where it was all about who had the fanciest, longest, most extravagant rig. $500K ShowHaulers with stackers, all over the place.  I rarely see that sort of thing at SVRA/HSR events.   No one, and I mean no one is going to judge your or put you down for having a modest rig, working on your own stuff or dis you for the car your race.  More importantly, while it is wheel to wheel racing, and it is a competitive spirit, both organizations are very strict about aggressiveness and don't tolerate any contact or aggressive maneuvers.  There are a lot of honest-to-god vintage racecars that are worth a lot of money running in some groups and no one whats to see them destroyed.

Both organizations welcome cars that most people wouldn't consider "vintage".  I race an 85 Mustang SVO in a class designated for cars that ran in "showroom stock" series in the day.  I didn't have to beg anyone to let me run, they were very welcoming, just asking for technical details of the car and some idea of how the car was raced.  My car is not an original racecar, it is a replica of a particular car that was raced and carries the same livery, which is something that they encourage.  In HSR there are 1st gen Miatas in my class as well as newer cars like 2001 BMW 330i's.  In other groups there is a wide variety of just about anything you can think of, mostly 60's and 70's cars, but a lot are newer too.

Both organizations have good websites with rules and car classification information.  Even so, like the HSR Street Stock Rules page says, in red:  "If your car is not listed do not assume it is not eligible".  They want participation and they put on good, clean, well run events.

This is relevant to my interests!!!  It would be great to have a place for me to run my late 80's 944's in the NE under the conditions you describe.

In reply to dean1484 :

There are many late 80's 944's running in my groups, both in SVRA and HSR.  There was an 86, and 88 and an 89 in my group in the Mitty at Road Atlanta (HSR) this year.   I just ran the HSR race at Watkins Glen a couple weeks ago and there wasn't any, but it was a relatively small event.  Come on in, the water's fine.

In reply to stukndapast :

Thank you.  I've recently attended a SVRA event at Brainerd to find out exactly that.  The racers were warm, welcoming,  encouraging, and took the time to carefully explain who to talk to and ask about things. 
     I saw cars of the extremely modest sort, driven well and came back in happy.  
An open trailer pulled by my pickup is exactly how I'll arrive. Most likely tenting because it lowers my cash outlay. I'm semi retired and still have the burning desire to race. But it has to be on a tiny budget. 
    I hope someday you'll choose to go to Elkhart  Lake and find the joy of driving that beautiful 4 mile track.  You'll find great people who go out of their way to be helpful. The best racetrack food in the world made by church groups who actually enjoy seeing you eating those homemade pies and sandwiches.  The corn on the cob was growing in someone's field yesterday, and Brats are world famous. 
Your wife will appreciate the antiques. Other sites and scenery. Even those who care nothing for racing love to vacation around there.  

wake74 said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to slowbird :Mind you, racing does involve some risk, but there is a world of difference between friends who know each other dicing hard, using skill and judgement to avoid damage. And the new guy driving boneheadedly.  

That I understand, friends racing hard and clean, I get it.  Going out knowing contact is likely, and that 2 or 3 cars get serious damage, or written off a weekend, I struggle with.

In the more than 40 years I've been a vintage racer I have had one trivial accident that took me 20 minutes to completely repair.  Garage rash, trailer rash, just sitting rash is always been much, much worse. 
    99%  of the races I go to the whole field returns un-scratched.  Well I can't guarantee the mechanical bits.  But I don't see many pulled in on a rope either. As for cars written off?  I know it happens. I've never seen it. Yes a few events over the past 40+ years  had a car with some body damage. But nothing that couldn't be repaired.   

Since you are looking for a single seater and or single seater experience I have two picks:

1. An old Sports Renault; there are still quite a few cars around that never got converted to Spec Racer Ford power trains. They are on treaded tires so they slide around like a sedan but at 1500lbs they give a an experience similar to a single seater.

2. A older D-sports Racer; if you run a stock 1000cc bike engine the motors will go forever.  The are 1000-1100lb cars with 150-180hp motors. They are fast and very exhilarating to drive (I once ran the class). SCCA has replaced this class with P2 which has more downforce then the older cars so the older DSRs can be had for as low as 7-8K bit expect to pay between 10-14K

Check Apexspeed for cars as well as Racingjunk.

I'm a west cost vintage racer but most vintage groups are founded on what you're looking for........friendly competition. 

Tom1200 said:

Since you are looking for a single seater and or single seater experience I have two picks:

1. An old Sports Renault; there are still quite a few cars around that never got converted to Spec Racer Ford power trains. They are on treaded tires so they slide around like a sedan but at 1500lbs they give a an experience similar to a single seater.

2. A older D-sports Racer; if you run a stock 1000cc bike engine the motors will go forever.  The are 1000-1100lb cars with 150-180hp motors. They are fast and very exhilarating to drive (I once ran the class). SCCA has replaced this class with P2 which has more downforce then the older cars so the older DSRs can be had for as low as 7-8K bit expect to pay between 10-14K

Check Apexspeed for cars as well as Racingjunk.

I'm a west cost vintage racer but most vintage groups are founded on what you're looking for........friendly competition. 

We are thinking along the exact same path. Been searching ApexSpeed (I was very active there when I had the Reynard FF), Racingjunk, and SpecRacer. I haven't succesfully gotten an account at SpecRacer yet tho. I've seen a few old posts in the price range you mention, but looks like they have sold.  There is an interesting (seems like a deal) Renault for sale in Florida that runs with Nasa-SE, but it's been pretty heavily modified (2.0 head, body modifications) that would probably not make it vintage friendly.

wake74 said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to wake74 :
Not knowing your budget but you might look at Formula A. ( Chevy small block, not Atlantic )  Can Am  cars.  ( earlier small block Chevy, space frame cars)   Over the last decade I've  seen some decently priced ones that need little other than a refreshing to go back on track. 
  The later big Block cars are still getting silly money. 
In general anything 1972 and older will be pretty well accepted by any group.  Groups that run the newer stuff tend to have some of the sort of driver you're trying to avoid.  

Should have listed budget.  Ideally in the 15-20k price range, which rules out anything CanAm (Not convincedI have the skillset to drive one anyways), and likely anything with any true provenance.

The confusing thing to me (okay there are more than one), is what defines Vintage.  I seem to recall GRM or CM doing an article recently about modern "vintage" cars, and even a first series Miata is now vintage eligible.  That just seems odd to me, but maybe I'm just getting old.  I seem to recall my 83/84 Reynard not being vintage eligible as it was a CFF, due to having inboard suspension on one end.

Thanks for the input so far!

 

Can Am attracted more than its share of dreamers especially in the early days. No you won't find any name brands at that price  or anything with a noteworthy provenance.  But tucked away someplace are  the pieces or remnants of a homemade Can Am car. 

In reply to wake74 :

Run it as a C-sports racer or put it back to correct.

I'm running my Formula 500 in vintage......it's an 87. I would have recommended a F500 but you likely couldn't run it at track days.

It will likely take you several months to find something but it will be worth the wait. 

Last year I crewed for my buddy's Morgan Plus Four at the VDCA race at Road Atlanta. We really had a good time, and the racing is pretty much what you describe. I think I'm going to do it in my SRF this year. 

Another option- Atlanta Motorsports Park has a monthly racing series, and they've been trying to get a Historic group going. Attendance has been light but we'd love to get more cars out there. It resumes in September. 

The tracks that are near me:

VIR:  1.5 hours
CMP:  3 hours
RRR:  5 hours
Charlotte:  2.5 hours
Summit Point:  5 hours
Road Atlanta:  5.5 hours

So a look at 2021 Schedules with races at those tracks:

VDCA
VIR / Summit Point / RRR / RA / RRR

SVRA:
Charlotte / RA / VIR

HSR:
RA / RA
 

So this would lend me to think that VDCA would be the logical choice if I just look at proximate location.    What does the group know about VDCA?  Their FB Group isn't super active, so not a lot to be gleaned from that.

frenchyd said:

 

Can Am attracted more than its share of dreamers especially in the early days. No you won't find any name brands at that price  or anything with a noteworthy provenance.  But tucked away someplace are  the pieces or remnants of a homemade Can Am car. 

I'm actually about finished with a 2 year frame off on a TR6, so a project wouldn't be out of the question.  The Reynard I bought needed a lot of sorting, so it got a nice over-all under my ownership, new floors, body cleaned up and resprayed, new hardware, etc.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Another option- Atlanta Motorsports Park has a monthly racing series, and they've been trying to get a Historic group going. Attendance has been light but we'd love to get more cars out there. It resumes in September. 

I have been to AMP for track days but have never heard anything about a race series or them looking for historic/vintage participants.  It is an easy track for me to get to.  Seems like they need to market the concept better.

In reply to wake74 :

Vintage racing is now accepting cars as new as 5 years old.  Luckily in the newest classes. That's where you're likely to find drivers who bought an old car cheap and have some illusions they are going to get to F1 ( and drive accordingly).  Not all but enough to avoid those classes. 
      I don't know how close a homemade Can Am  car could be to a single seater.  I do know they can be sorted into that level but that might require some creativity in the restoration.  
    I do know my Black Jack while heavier than a single seater took all the suspension inputs a formula car did  and could be adjusted  to track inputs as easily. 
  Realize that any full on racing engine rebuild is likely to eat up at least $ 4-5,000 of your budget and $2-3000 for a proper trans/ differential rebuild. ( assuming you have it professionally done). You may have the skills and temperament to build one yourself and then those costs can be reduced. But price out tires.  $1000 a set is a typical budget for race tires. 
       

frenchyd said:

In reply to wake74 :

Vintage racing is now accepting cars as new as 5 years old.  Luckily in the newest classes. That's where you're likely to find drivers who bought an old car cheap and have some illusions they are going to get to F1 ( and drive accordingly).  Not all but enough to avoid those classes. 
      I don't know how close a homemade Can Am  car could be to a single seater.  I do know they can be sorted into that level but that might require some creativity in the restoration.  
    I do know my Black Jack while heavier than a single seater took all the suspension inputs a formula car did  and could be adjusted  to track inputs as easily. 
  Realize that any full on racing engine rebuild is likely to eat up at least $ 4-5,000 of your budget and $2-3000 for a proper trans/ differential rebuild. ( assuming you have it professionally done). You may have the skills and temperament to build one yourself and then those costs can be reduced. But price out tires.  $1000 a set is a typical budget for race tires. 
       

Understood, the cost of the car is just the entrance fee into this world, the rest of the costs are where the money is especially with an inexpensive car.  If I go buy a $250k car, race tires are a pretty small cost by percentage.

Do you have any experience with VDCA that you can share?  

In reply to wake74 :

No, mainly with SVRA, VSCDA, HSR, VSCCA,  VSCRI,etc. I prefer to race at Elkhart Lake. But have raced events all over. 

In reply to frenchyd :

For the cars on his list the costs will be very low. A good running motorcyle engine can be had for $1000. Rebuilding an old Sports Renault engine is going to entail gaskets and bearings. 

Tire costs could be lowered by simply buying used tires or just running them longer. I run 3 weekends on a set of slicks for the F500 as vintage is more laid back I find no need to put a fresh set on every weekend.