If you had an suv with just a middle lap belt, what's the deal with adding a bar behind rear seat and a 4-point (Beard etc.) harness?
I see so many racing harnesses in so many street-going vehicles, it's hard to believe that they're illegal or create liability issues with everyone that uses them.
For the SUV in question, was the body style offered in later years with a center shoulder belt? If so, that center shoulder is likely built into the seat so sourcing a newer rear seat from a newer year would give you a "bolt in" upgrade.
In this day and age, some people sue for anything. Its likely not illegal assuming you didn't do something grossly negligent/stupid. However the same hurdle isn't there in determining civil liability. If you go with a pre-engineered solution you'd likely be fine as well, but if you designed your own and someone got hurt (related or unrelated to the modification) expect a good chance of a drawn out fight
ebonyandivory wrote: I see so many racing harnesses in so many street-going vehicles, it's hard to believe that they're illegal or create liability issues with everyone that uses them.
"Illegal" and "is a problem" are two separate things.
I'll use a 92-96 Ford Bronco for example. And maybe this harness: http://m.americanmuscle.com/corbeau-2in-3pt-harness.html
If a welded in crossbar with mounting tabs were welded across the truck behind the back seat in a position that complimented the harness and was reinforced by a competent shop, would anyone feel thier passenger would be unsafe?
ebonyandivory wrote: I'll use a 92-96 Ford Bronco for example. And maybe this harness: http://m.americanmuscle.com/corbeau-2in-3pt-harness.html If a welded in crossbar with mounting tabs were welded across the truck behind the back seat in a position that complimented the harness and was reinforced by a competent shop, would anyone feel thier passenger would be unsafe?
Definitely, anti sub-belts exist for a reason. 3 points are "ok" because you have an airbag and they allow the top of the body to move forward so all your energy isn't directed under you. With a 4 point you slide under the dash. Bad place to be in a crash.
3/4 Point belts w/o airbag vs 5/6 point belts.
Here you can see why you should always rock a HANS device in your race car, because you probably don't have an airbag to stop your super heavy helmeted head from flying forward....
Airbags are annoying, but they serve the same purpose. Keep you from breaking your neck....
Not a race car. Not in front seat. Just to clarify.
In reply to ebonyandivory:
Doesn't matter really, I was speaking generally. Go 3 or 5 point, though I suppose a 4 point might be better than a 2 point belt in some cases....
If you are going to weld in a cross bar behind the rear seat, why not mount a factory seat belt/retractor/etc. so its an identical setup to the other 2 rear seats (only in the middle)?
I would very much avoid a racing harness.
Is this a requirement? For mounting a child seat? Child seat belt law?
It's MY requirement for my kids.
I was thinking the very same thing: to get a Ford retractable belt and mount the retractor in the appropriate location behind and slightly above the back if the seat?
If I went with this idea, are there any formulas or guidelines to follow for placement? It seems strength is the easy part.
I may be out of date with this … but I remember several yrs ago someone telling me that "racing" harnesses weren't legal because the companies that produce them (with one or two exceptions) haven't gone to the expense of getting them certified with what ever agency of the federal government that does the certifying … leaving them liable in the event of an injury/death "due" to the use of after market harness
JohnRW1621 wrote: For the SUV in question, was the body style offered in later years with a center shoulder belt? If so, that center shoulder is likely built into the seat so sourcing a newer rear seat from a newer year would give you a "bolt in" upgrade.
The later model may have a modified floor pan for the seat to work properly.
wbjones wrote: I may be out of date with this … but I remember several yrs ago someone telling me that "racing" harnesses weren't legal because the companies that produce them (with one or two exceptions) haven't gone to the expense of getting them certified with what ever agency of the federal government that does the certifying … leaving them liable in the event of an injury/death "due" to the use of after market harness
they probably all come with a "not for highway use" or "offroad use only" sticker on the box somewhere. and besides, if you believe SFI they start to disintegrate exactly 2 years after the date of manufacture..
ebonyandivory wrote: I'll use a 92-96 Ford Bronco for example. And maybe this harness: http://m.americanmuscle.com/corbeau-2in-3pt-harness.html If a welded in crossbar with mounting tabs were welded across the truck behind the back seat in a position that complimented the harness and was reinforced by a competent shop, would anyone feel thier passenger would be unsafe?
IIRC, and maybe I'm taking your example too far, but these Bronco's had a "non-removable" top mounted with Torx screws. It was non-removable because the fiberglass top had the shoulder belt mounts for the rear bench.
I'd be real hesitant about tying more shoulder belts to a "non-removable" removable fiberglass roof.
In reply to Mike:
The middle shoulder belt wouldn't be tied into the top (I can't even think how that's possible with the middle position ).
I'm thinking a 2" roll-cage type bar welded horizontally in the rear cargo area but close to the back of the seat at the appropriate height. Braced as needed and tabs welded for the belt retractor.
My Protege5 has three belts and the middle shoulder belt bolts back toward the rear of the car on the drivers side.
This seems workable to me. The caveat being using a DOT belt (Ford replacement) and putting the retractor in the correct location so it works like my Mazda does.
In reply to ebonyandivory:
You are asking about the legality, yet debating the safety and methods. That's a little weird.
Bottom line, it's not legal. Modifying the safety restraint system on a vehicle is not legal, and neither is using an after market product clearly designated as "not for road use". It is also not legal to use an OEM restraint system in ANY manner other than the original design. But no one is going to arrest you or take you to jail.
Does that really matter? Your real question is "Is it safe, better than what I've got, or what is the safest way to do what I'd like to do".
That's a different question.
If you modify the system then sell the car and someone is hurt, you will get sued (whether or not your system is better), and you will probably loose. If you ride a passenger who relys on the system and is hurt, you will get sued, and probably loose.
But I seriously doubt your kids are gonna sue you.
There is no law against something IN ADDITION to the original system (unless it interferes with the system). Leave the original lap belt, and add shoulder harnesses to make yourself feel better. If they fail, you are still relying on the original restraint system.
There is no way to do what you are asking legally. But there will never be a citation issued, and there are ways to do it safely.
I may have missed it, but how old are the kids? I wouldn't install a child seat relying on an after market modification.
One more thing... Are you prepared for the consequences? Sometimes, people die in accidents, regardless of the safety equipment. If your system were to fail, could you sleep at night? If your system did not seemingly fail, but your child died, would you feel it might have been your fault? It's nice to think we can "improve" a system, but when we do, we are taking the responsibility on ourselves, and need to be prepared to accept the full responsibility and consequences.
Full disclosure- I have added 4 point harnesses to my older car and allowed my kids to use them.
SVreX wrote: "You are asking about the legality, yet debating the safety and methods. That's a little weird."
Hmmmm, I want my kids to be safe and not break the law while doing so. That's weird to you?
It's getting to the point where it's not worth the hassle both in deed and in conscious. You brought up some good questions/points and yes I have thought about most of them previously.
I know I could design a safe system with the help of a good local fabricator as I'm not breaking any new ground here but I think I'll put my idea of a short-wheelbase, full-size, 5 passenger three point restraint suv on the back burner. I'm really bad with the "being good enough" part. I'm much too paranoid/anal to do that.
I guess what I am trying to tell you is that I think you that I think you are being too hung up on "the law", and tried to outline an approach for you.
There are several possible laws:
It is illegal to modify a safety restraint system.
It is illegal to install a product not in accordance with it's manufactured intent ( like using an off-road device on the road)
It is illegal to not have a child secured in a motor vehicle. This one is a little tricky- it would tie into the specific wording in you states's laws. Foe example, it might say, " children must be restrained in an OEM system", or it might say "children must be restrained", or it might say, "children must be properly restrained". It's nit-picky, regardless.
So, you can be in compliance with #1 by not modifying the system. Leave the lap belts.
You can be in compliance with #2 by not installing an off-road device for the purpose of being used as a on-road safety restraint system. Install the harnesses for the purpose of securing luggage. If the kids happen to use it in another manner, oh well.
The third one can also be solved, depending on the details of the wording.
You are asking for a general "Is it legal". I answered that- no. But you need to consider the situation a bit more creatively.
The 4-point harnesses in my El Camino do not replace the original restraint system, and were not installed as a highway restraint system. They were installed because I like the look of them for car shows, so they are no more illegal than the fuzzy dice hanging from the rear view mirror.
In reply to ebonyandivory:
4-point harnesses are a bad idea, anywhere, period. Worse than 3 point, even without an airbag.
Why? Without a crotch strap(s) (aka 5-point or 6-point) a 4-point systems shoulder harnesses will tend to pull the lap belt up both when simply tightened and more importantly when in an impact because of there the shoulder straps attach to the lap belt. Having your whole body slip out from under the lap belt isnt as big a problem or likelihood as is the high likelihood that the shoulder straps will lift the lap belt up over your hip bones in an impact, resulting in the lap belt restraining you in your soft mid-section, resulting in internal injuries. The crotch strap(s)is intended to prevent this...of course it has to be properly mounted and adjusted to work. Another reason any race harness is probably not a good idea in a passenger car...soft OEM seats, difficulty installing a harness properly and the lack of self-adjusting features.
The traditional DOT 3 point belt system anchors the shoulder portion of the strap at the same point as one side of the lap belt so it does not lift the lap belt in an impact.
In your shoes I would much rather install a modern suv or minivan rear seat with the belts integrated into the seat. The seat in the Bronco is probably a fold and tumble anyway, like most third row seats, and you could certainly build sturdy mounting brackets easier and stronger than your bar across the back.
The only time I have seen a number for seat belt anchor points was in the CT laws for kit or homemade autos. The number there was 5000# of force in the forward direction with a certain amount of deflection maximum. That would be a tough number to reach in the middle of a cross bar, but in floor mounted seat brackets worst case you could tie to the frame underneath the floor.
I know this isn't the popular option but maybe it's time to retire the old SUV for something newer and safer?
I still can't fathom why anyone here thinks a 4 point harness is safer than a 3 point belt? There is a reason you're not allowed to run 4 points at any of the HPDEs, etc. If you lock your shoulders (as a 4 point does), but don't have a HANS device you'll end with a broken neck (or crush vital organs by submarining). Street car == 3 point.
I understand you're in an older car, but I'm with the above comment: If you're worried about crash safety, you need to change vehicles.
wbjones wrote: I may be out of date with this … but I remember several yrs ago someone telling me that "racing" harnesses weren't legal because the companies that produce them (with one or two exceptions) haven't gone to the expense of getting them certified with what ever agency of the federal government that does the certifying … leaving them liable in the event of an injury/death "due" to the use of after market harness
The DOT legal harnesses use a more idiotproof latch than the camlock or latch and link arrangement, and one of the shoulder straps is designed to stretch more than the other so that your body can rotate forward, which keeps you from submarining. (Is also how the 3-point belts work)
Don't discount the idiotproof latch thing. A lot of the difference between DOT braided brake lines and just assembling them yourself from AN fittings is the DOT lines are crimped, so nobody accidentally loosens the wrong fitting. (Really.)
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