Let's talk about alcohol

I like how the OP went straight to what you could drink.

I hoped that my telling the jet size diff would allow you to see that yes it takes more alcohol to Create the same number On the British Thermal Unit scale. But the reason to use it is so you can add in More Timing before Detonation/so you can use much more Compression Before Detonation both of which will make more Power,In Itself No it won't make more power it's what you can do to the engine parametors that can make the Power. my spelling Sucks. but I can tell you all about BTU's if you don't want to look it up. This I was taught in avaition school and it is Gospel.

alfadriver wrote: What is the effect on the engine? Or how does the engine change how it's being operated?

Ethanol produces more water as a product. I don't think it affects things much, but many manufacturers recommend more frequent oil changes when burning E85. For flex fuel vehicles, the computer calculates when to turn on the oil change light sooner based on the proportion of ethanol the sensors see.

This is clearly not a thread about bourbon.

I can tell you that E85 makes the dyno room smell much nicer. And makes more powers on turbos in a big happy way.

On older cars, you might want to grab a gallon of E85 and chuck representative samples of your fuel line in it to see how they survive. Also, keep in mind that it may be harder to cold start.

curtis73 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: What is the effect on the engine? Or how does the engine change how it's being operated?

Ethanol produces more water as a product. I don't think it affects things much, but many manufacturers recommend more frequent oil changes when burning E85. For flex fuel vehicles, the computer calculates when to turn on the oil change light sooner based on the proportion of ethanol the sensors see.

I meant more how the calibration ran the engine.

How does the car react to a turbo that is too small, and how does it being too small manifest itself?

One of the projects I worked on actually made less power when we let it really start boosting- as the calibration was optimized for peak pressure as opposed to the most efficient way of making torque. Once boost got high enough, it quickly got into a death spiral effect.

Ethanol will fix quite a bit of that burning cooler and having a much higher octane number.

In a purpose built situation E85 is neat stuff, but in a daily driver it doesn't seem worth it unless its super cheap, like half the price of 87 octane.

Since ethonal blends (10%, 15% etc) are so wide spread, I like the idea of buying the E85 option on a new car (if the price is resonable). While I may not burn E85 on a regular basis, I know the fuel system will handle any blend the future may hold.

gearheadmb wrote: Its my understanding that On a carbed vehicle you need a special carb, is that correct? What else would you need? Beyond need, what would be the "ideal" ethanol NA street build, as far as things like compression ratio and such?

That's why I want to talk about alcohol. No you don't need a special carb. All you need to do is adapt your existing carb to alcohol's requirements. In other words you need to richen it up!! About 65% for E85.

There are fancy ways to do that but I just got out my drills. Figure out how much fuel runs through the jets in say 10 seconds and then drill them out until they flow 165%

gearheadmb wrote: Well ethanol is 113 octane, so theres that. I think i would like to do an ethanol build for the mustang, but ethanol is kind of hard to find in my area, which is ironic because i live in corn country.

I'll bet it's like everything else.. Since you haven't really looked for it you don't see it.. but once you find it you'll start to see it in a lot of places.

Try looking up race fuels on the internet.. They all sell E85 in 5 gallon and 55 gallon drums/barrels.. Once you try it and feel the power difference it will make it will be worth your time to find the local sources.. Besides now you will have a specially marked can or barrel just for sealing up your E85 (according to a number of sources kept properly sealed in a dark place it can last up to a year!!)

Ask around,, hotrodders, circle track guys, drag racers, if there is anyplace that sells it straight from the pump someone will know.. That's why I like the flex fuel option.. I can burn 87 octane or E85 without doing anything!!!

patgizz wrote: Real world: 2005 flex fuel avalanche 14.5 mpg on 87. 3mpg on e85. Yes, i burned 25 gallons in 75 miles. Stuck with regular 87 after that. The real question is how much power will it add to a v12 jaaaaaaag

My new truck get's 19.4 mpg driving to and from work! but the E85 dropped my mileage a lot.. Wheeee!!!! Of course the time I burned up a tank of 87 octane gas seeing how fast it went that gas mileage sucked too!

Calm rational (boring) people testing them both under identical conditions report a 25% mileage decrease.. My last tank I paid $2.30 a gallon.. E85 was $1.59

And as for a V12 Jag, it depends! First it doesn't have the flex fuel option but once I figure out how to do it because it has 11.5-1 compression ratio it will make a significant improvement Maybe as much as 100 horsepower.
Now the early ones with 7.8-1 compression not a very big improvement. I'd expect no more than 25 horsepower..

Robbie wrote: This is relevant to my interests. Q: if I have a turbo car that is at (let's assume for easy discussion) the max power the turbo can provide on normal gas, do I stand to gain anything by switching to e85 (I know id need a crap ton more fuel capacity in pump and injectors) without changing turbo?

Yes you will gain a significant amount with a turbo,, the more boost the more you gain!!!! It's about Octane!! Ethanol has 114 octane!! The gas in E85 not so much. and exactly how it's blended makes a difference too. But if you have the ability to adjust for poor or good quality It's all your foot.. If it's good stuff, wheee!! have fun! If it's bad stuff drive like grandma..

You high tech guys with a mega-squirt or any other on the go adjustable computer can deal with such issues with a few key strokes

Of course if money is no object you can buy from VP fuels or Sunoco etc. and have perfect fuel every time..

GTXVette wrote: the alcohol carbs used 102 jets where the Gas used 89-93's. to me (dog gone Pat that's awful)the down side is the water attraction it Hydrates itself insanly but all other things being equal for performance it's better you can run 14 to 1 compression for better results(POWER) and in turbo or Blown it's a Miracle drug Intakes will form Ice on them. but it's best to run it empty to store the car because of hydration.

Yes Alcohol attracts water!! But water isn't bad for power. Take a drive on a rainy day and you can actually feel the improvement.. In long term storage it becomes an issue though.. Back in the 1950's we used to drain the alcohol from the tanks overnight and put it in sealed containers. But we used Methanol not Ethanol. Remember Ethanol drink, Methanol, die!!

captdownshift wrote: Just wait until the Biobutanol and Isobutanol blends come out and replace Ethanol, you'll see 400-600HP 1.6L motors with little to no turbo lag.

We have that ability now! It's called nitromethane. Just 5% makes an engine really go!!! But too much makes the engine blow up too! Oh and if you use nitromethane you'd better get out the bigger drill bit's (or injectors)

spitfirebill wrote: Around here they price E-85 at about $.10 a gallon less than 87 octane. I think they are just trying to trick you into thinking it is 87 at that price.

Around here we have E15 for 10 cents less a gallon.. and if you have a 2001 or later vehicle you can use it straight away.. I used to blend a 1/2 tank of 87 octane with a half a tank of 15% ethanol in my 1997 Chevy pickup.. since it lasted 371,000 miles and (20 years)I don't think it hurt it any!

curtis73 wrote: I would look hard into the claims about more HP. It might be an anomaly with the Miata, but in general, ethanol produces about 20% less peak cylinder pressure. After all, its BTU content is considerably less than gasoline. Ethanol makes less power and the greater consumption/cheaper price is usually about a wash. Where ethanol really shines is in a purpose-built engine with higher compression. But just putting ethanol in a regular gasoline engine is not a power-adder.

While you are partly correct, you are also partly wrong. The added Oxygen allows more fuel to burn so you can go richer which makes more power.. If you simply add fuel to a given engine once past 14.7- 1 power goes down. If you add air to the engine either by super/turbocharging it or increased compression you gain more power. think of the added oxygen molecule as a extremely tiny supercharger

ShadowSix wrote:

patgizz wrote: Real world: 2005 flex fuel avalanche 14.5 mpg on 87. 3mpg on e85. Yes, i burned 25 gallons in 75 miles. Stuck with regular 87 after that. The real question is how much power will it add to a v12 jaaaaaaag

As a counterpoint, 2014 Scion FRS 26-ish mpg on 93 octane 19-ish mpg on E85 And that's probably not a fair comparison because I did the muffler delete and the E85 tune at the same time, and I think I rev the motor out more now to hear the exhaust. So, I go ~75% as far on a gallon of E85, but down here in Columbus a gallon of E85 costs ~75% as much. Essentially, the 10-15 go I get from the E85 are free horsepower.

Excellent point..

alfadriver wrote:

Robbie wrote: This is relevant to my interests. Q: if I have a turbo car that is at (let's assume for easy discussion) the max power the turbo can provide on normal gas, do I stand to gain anything by switching to e85 (I know id need a crap ton more fuel capacity in pump and injectors) without changing turbo?

It very much depends on what is limiting the power in your gas engine. If the power limit is due to knock limiting, you can gain a lot from that. If the power limit is due to temperature issues- you can gain a lot from that. If it's due to BOTH of the above (AKA, the turbo death spiral), you can gain a TON of power.

I'm very glad you brought that up! Yes the added octane gains power but alcohol is a lot cooler running too! back in the 1950's we used to run very small radiators on sprint cars burning alcohol.. Since the Offenhauser was designed to run on alcohol if forced to run on gas the engine quickly overheated!!!

alfadriver wrote:

curtis73 wrote: I would look hard into the claims about more HP. It might be an anomaly with the Miata, but in general, ethanol produces about 20% less peak cylinder pressure. After all, its BTU content is considerably less than gasoline. Ethanol makes less power and the greater consumption/cheaper price is usually about a wash. Where ethanol really shines is in a purpose-built engine with higher compression. But just putting ethanol in a regular gasoline engine is not a power-adder.

Well, yes and no. Gasoline has basically 43 MJ/kg of fuel, and is evenly mixed at 14.6:1. So for 1 kg of air, there's about 2.94 MJ of energy in the fuel that is required to burn that air. Ethanol has 26.5 MJ/kg of fuel, and is evenly mixed in air at 9:1. Same 1kg of air, there will be about 2.94MJ of energy to burn in that air. What you are seeing is that ethanol isn't fully able to extract that energy at stoich as it burns cooler, and the ideal physics are farther away than with gas. Where it gets really interesting is a peak power. While I can't vouch for the source, a Hot Rod article (http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0611-e85-ethanol-fuel-test/) suggests that peak power enrichment for E85 is 6.9:1 and gas is 12.5:1. The gas part is where I'm also familiar with, so the E85 seems good. At that air fuel ratio, the 1kg of air now has 3.44 MJ of fuel energy for gasoline, and 3.84 MJ of energy for the E85. That kind of difference can easily make up for the physics burning difference. (on the other hand- if you run the lean side of the enrichment- gas is 3.25MJ and E85 is 3.15 MJ- so the key of the key for E85 is that you can inject more fuel and have it make useful power)

Well said,, To keep it simple I tell people to think of the extra oxygen molecule as a mini-supercharger.. Now that's wrong because you need more fuel to make it work (and keep from making the mixture too lean) but the potential power gain is there..

Chadeux wrote: I'd look into e85 for boost related activities if the nearest station that carried it was less than 2 hours away.

If there is demand gas stations will start to carry it.. Check the race fuels websites. you can buy it in 5 gallon cans or 55 gallon drums.. Ask around at auto parts stores and other places gearheads gather..

curtis73 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: What is the effect on the engine? Or how does the engine change how it's being operated?

Ethanol produces more water as a product. I don't think it affects things much, but many manufacturers recommend more frequent oil changes when burning E85. For flex fuel vehicles, the computer calculates when to turn on the oil change light sooner based on the proportion of ethanol the sensors see.

So are you saying that the flex fuel option is simply a computer upgrade? That would be very good news indeed, I can see a trip to a junkyard in my near future looking for the flex fuel emblem on Jaguar V12's

Gearheadotaku wrote: In a purpose built situation E85 is neat stuff, but in a daily driver it doesn't seem worth it unless its super cheap, like half the price of 87 octane. Since ethonal blends (10%, 15% etc) are so wide spread, I like the idea of buying the E85 option on a new car (if the price is resonable). While I may not burn E85 on a regular basis, I know the fuel system will handle any blend the future may hold.

It doesn't need to be 1/2 price, just 65% of what the gas you normally buy is.. Race gas is around $9. a gallon here. (depending...)

GTXVette wrote: the alcohol carbs used 102 jets where the Gas used 89-93's. to me (dog gone Pat that's awful)the down side is the water attraction it Hydrates itself insanly but all other things being equal for performance it's better you can run 14 to 1 compression for better results(POWER) and in turbo or Blown it's a Miracle drug Intakes will form Ice on them. but it's best to run it empty to store the car because of hydration.

Hydration, There is one of the really old myths, While it's true that in the old days (mid to late 50's) we used to drain the alcohol from the tank nightly, that's because we used methanol!! (remember the stuff that kills you if you drink it?) Methanol attacks metal without water!!! Ethanol on the other hand is much more benign.. A shot glass of whisky (ethanol) will make you happy, a shot glass of methanol will kill you! (or at least make you blind)

Want proof? Fair enough, take a glass of 100 proof whisky and weigh it.. be as accurate as possible.. now leave it out for 24 hours and reweigh it.. the difference is how much water was absorbed in 24 hours.. Well sort of.. first 100 proof whisky is only 50% alcohol the rest is water.. pure alcohol is 200 proof.. next some of the alcohol will evaporate replacing some of the water absorbed..

See nothing is as simple as it seems at first.. However I've read on several sites where properly stored E85 lasts up to a year. (tightly sealed can kept in the dark)

Keith Tanner wrote: I can tell you that E85 makes the dyno room smell much nicer. And makes more powers on turbos in a big happy way. On older cars, you might want to grab a gallon of E85 and chuck representative samples of your fuel line in it to see how they survive. Also, keep in mind that it may be harder to cold start.

Good point about harder starting with E85, alcohol is harder to start. On the other hand we buy it up here in Minnesota and so far the truck has always started even on those sub zero (20 below) days. As far as older cars and rubber fuel hoses.. Well fuel hoses should be marked to use in fuel.. The mistake that often happens is people get rubber from the hardware store.. it's the right size and they think rubber is rubber!! Fuel hose should be made from Butyl not rubber!!! While they look and feel the same they aren't!

frenchyd wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: I can tell you that E85 makes the dyno room smell much nicer. And makes more powers on turbos in a big happy way. On older cars, you might want to grab a gallon of E85 and chuck representative samples of your fuel line in it to see how they survive. Also, keep in mind that it may be harder to cold start.

Good point about harder starting with E85, alcohol is harder to start. On the other hand we buy it up here in Minnesota and so far the truck has always started even on those sub zero (20 below) days. As far as older cars and rubber fuel hoses.. Well fuel hoses should be marked to use in fuel.. The mistake that often happens is people get rubber from the hardware store.. it's the right size and they think rubber is rubber!! Fuel hose should be made from Butyl not rubber!!! While they look and feel the same they aren't!

On that note, one modern thing REALLY helps- direct injection. E85 works SO well with DI, in my work. Starts much easier than on PFI.

For the water absorption thing, yeah, ethanol will absorb water. But at the same time, it has to absorb a good bit to really be a problem. When it absorbs enough to start separating is when it really gets ugly.

For the most part, it's not a concern. If it absorbs a few ounces of water into a full tank of E85, you'll never notice anything. E85 has to absorb close to 20% of its weight in water before separation occurs, IIRC.

Don't forget, the "drygas" people used to add to their tanks to get water out is just alcohol that soaks up the water and lets it pass through the system in solution much like ethanol does (this is why modern E10 gas makes drygas obsolete).