Let's talk track day safety setup: street driven edition

So I've finally got a couple of track days under my belt and I've decided that it's a thing I want to keep doing. I also want to keep the use of my extremities should the worst happen so I don't want to skimp on the safety equipment. Here's the rub though, I don't have the budget or space for a tow vehicle so whatever I do it has to be safe on the street as well. Bonus points if I can keep enough interior to stay legal in SCCA Solo Street or ST classes.

Here's my current assumptions, so I want you guys to weigh in and call me a fool if necessary.

• A full cage is a bad idea on the street since without a helmet bonking your noggin is not fun.
• If you're going to run with a harness you need a HANS device so you don't hurt your neck in a collision. This has been explained that the stock seat belts allow for more motion forward and work in conjunction with your airbag.

I realize when you're talking cage/harness/seats it's usually an all-or-nothing scenario, but I'm rationalizing a hybrid setup (back to that fool part).

• Half-cage/roll-bar/whateveryouwanttocallit with diagonals and harness bar - bolt in or welded still a consideration. Leaning towards pre-fabbed weld-in.
• Harness/HANS/helmet on track and keep the stock belts/airbags for the street
• Probably fixed back seats to accommodate the harness and reduce the chance of the stock seats flexing enough for my head to reach the half cage. Right now this is a bigger question to me as they'll have to work with the stock belt angles. Seems doable for the entry level seats without all the crazy deep buckets and halos. This would obviously bump me in autocross classing, but that would be acceptable.

So this should theoretically allow me to use the factory safety equipment on the street and rely on the half-cage/harness/helmet/HANS on track. Am I off-base? What am I missing? Fire extinguisher maybe? A full-on cockpit-controlled system seems like overkill.

If any feedback is car-dependent, right now I'm planning on replacing my fun fleet with an S2000 or C5 Vette sometime next year. I realize either will be difficult to retain the stock interior behind the seats with that kind of setup. Probably easier in the goldchainmobile.

You can have a custom cage or roll bar constructed to be out of reach of your skull. And use high density padding where your knees and elbows and head "might" bonk.

Because one thing that is a HUGE benefit to having is a fixed back race seat and six point harnesses to hold you in place such that all your touches on the controls can be as light as possible.

Keep the 3 point belts operational for the street so you don't stretch your neck in a crash while not wearing your head/neck restraint collar.

What kind of car?

Go check out klodcrawler's thread here. I had a chance to see the sister car to this build at One Lap and the half cage/seat/belts setup is exactly the sort of thing you're describing. It was done well.

Some cars its impossible to design a cage to give you proper headroom. SFI padding will not save you from major head injury if you're not wearing a helmet.

Driving a car on the street as a DD with a cage in it is a real PITA, let alone unsafe. If you drive it sparingly, risk is minimized but it sounds like that's not the case here.

The "in between" step is as you've detailed, a back half rollbar, with proper SFI padding, fixed back seats and 6 point harnesses/HANS.

docwyte wrote: SFI padding will not save you from major head injury if you're not wearing a helmet. Driving a car on the street as a DD with a cage in it is a real PITA, let alone unsafe. If you drive it sparingly, risk is minimized but it sounds like that's not the case here.

Not the soft stuff - the expensive high density foam used in formula cars where space to decelerate a body part is very tight. It will be as "soft" as if you cracked your head on the A pillar which... while not exactly a safe thing to do - it will not scramble your egg like the cheap nerf SFI padding on a .095 tube will. It would essentially be the same as whacking your head on the parts of a street car without an airbag.

But, like you said - it's car dependent how far away you can safely put the main hoop or if you can have a full cage vs half.

It's also very expensive to ask a good cage builder to do a proper re-design to accommodate that. It's cheaper than a truck and trailer but it's not cheap at all. And it's never going W2W racing so you are spending to get a compromise you can live with.

I've got the "hard" SFI padding on my rollbar. I wouldn't want to smack my head into it with any kinda of real force. Injury would definitely be happening there, the SFI padding is meant to be used in conjunction with 6 point harnesses and helmets, not 3 point belts and unprotected noggins.

First of all, good to hear my assumptions aren't totally off-base. I'll check out klodcrawler's thread - thanks! I'm a bit wary of any front bars on the street not to mention the cost of a custom job, but duly noted. Might be worth at least a look.

As to what kind of car, right now I've decided not to build what I have for various reasons (Integra & MR2) and instead replace both with a dedicated autox/track car. Like I said in the original post, I'm favoring either an S2000 or C5 Corvette. Neither one has a ton of space inside, hence the half cage. It's all theoretical right now though, so I could be swayed to an E36/46. Those don't seem to be as competitive in their autox classes though, which is still a factor. I don't plan on using this for wheel-to-wheel stuff. A car for that would have to be much cheaper on consumables for my taste.

C5's (well, corvettes in general) are hard to properly mount cages/rollbars in due to their construction.

My track car is an E36 M3 and its a very good track platform. Not as fast as a corvette tho and parts are a bit more money but not what I'd call expensive.

docwyte wrote: I've got the "hard" SFI padding on my rollbar. I wouldn't want to smack my head into it with any kinda of real force. Injury would definitely be happening there, the SFI padding is meant to be used in conjunction with 6 point harnesses and helmets, not 3 point belts and unprotected noggins.

I hear you - but there really is no way to make this 100% impervious. A stock car's pillars are not soft either. I would not want to rap my naked head on anything at all really. The high density foam is there to add a low speed smack that won't break your skull but the bar should not be close enough to your noodle to be smacked anyway. Like you said - not all cars can pull this off and still offer rollover protection so ... maybe a C5 can't.

I know we have done it in E30, E36, E46, 944, and a Mustang in the group of guys I run with over the last 20 years but those cars have a lot of room to go tight up to the skin and rearward with the hoop.

FWIW, I did not do this to my own cars. I'm a full cage, halo seat, 6 pt harness, fire system guy. I wasn't always though before going w2w racing so I can see where the want to try the compromise comes from. I've helped build a couple. Most guys eventually outgrew that and ended up towing anyway. They all lived to tell the tale. YMMV.

Matt B wrote: - Half-cage/roll-bar/whateveryouwanttocallit with diagonals and harness bar - bolt in or welded still a consideration. Leaning towards pre-fabbed weld-in. - Harness/HANS/helmet on track and keep the stock belts/airbags for the street - Probably fixed back seats to accommodate the harness and reduce the chance of the stock seats flexing enough for my head to reach the half cage. Right now this is a bigger question to me as they'll have to work with the stock belt angles. Seems doable for the entry level seats without all the crazy deep buckets and halos. This would obviously bump me in autocross classing, but that would be acceptable.

It sounds like you've got the right idea. This pretty much describes the setup I've used on my street-driven track car for the last 10 years or so. It has a 4 point bar with sfi padding that's mostly out of head bonking range. Fixed back seats that retain the stock seatbelts and 6 point harnesses with quick disconnects for the shoulder straps that only come out at the track/autox. The seats aren't so deep that the stock belts are loose across the chest.

docwyte wrote: C5's (well, corvettes in general) are hard to properly mount cages/rollbars in due to their construction.

Hmmm, I haven't run across anything on the forums. Please elaborate. Something to do with the plastic fantastic body?

If the only cage you can construct in your car of choice has bars that your head can contact, don't do a full cage. That being said, if your willing to go the extra mile, you can build a fully integrated roll cage that can blend into the interior. Nobles and Rossions come with a fully integrated roll cage that you don't even know is there. The last cage I built is in my LS3 powered TR8 coupe. It basically replaces the inner panel ribs in the roof. I cut the roof off, and removed everything except the top skin and the door channels. Then I built the top halo in such a manner that the top skin had to slide on from the front. There was no dropping the roof back over this halo. Now that its done, there is actually more head room where the halo is than there was with the inner roof strengthening ribs. At this point, I can fill the voids with spray foam, sand smooth and cover with a headliner like there isn't even a bar there. Did the same basic thing on the down tubes beside the windshield. Every time I have wrecked a race car, it was my legs that took the beating. Knees against roll cage tubing hurts. If you build a full cage, worry just as much about your legs as you do your head.

Anybody got any experience with dual-stage padding for street use? I have SFI padding in my miata on the roll bar but like everybody said I'd never want to actually hit my head on it without a helmet. I was thinking of adding some 'pool-noddle' foam over the top.

Also,

Matt B wrote:

docwyte wrote: C5's (well, corvettes in general) are hard to properly mount cages/rollbars in due to their construction.

Hmmm, I haven't run across anything on the forums. Please elaborate. Something to do with the plastic fantastic body?

I'd imagine we're just talking about physically having space to fit one. I can't imagine installing a roll bar in a car with such little space behind the seat without the ability to remove the top...

EDIT: I'M WRONG

Everyone I've talked to about the pool noodle thing says all you're protecting against is bumping your head getting in and out of the car. The forces involved in a real accident ci press the foam car enough that it's useless. It just makes your rollbar really big and really soft and just as dangerous.

C5 and C6 Corvettes actually have quite a lot of room in the hatch. You're not going to carry four tires and a tote of tools in there, but they're very liveable compared to a Miata. They are popular cars on One Lap for this reason and several people run roll bars and harnesses in them as well. I wish I could find the comment, but at least one experienced car builder said that the C5-6 cars are the only ones he'd be ok running just a harness bar in because the factory hoop is so strong.

Unlike the S2000 the C5 Z06 has some protection stock with a steel hoop and hard connections to the A pillars. I've seen rollover pics where the the roof didn't collapse. Not saying it's a roll cage but it faired better than a stock S2000.

I'm in the same boat with my C5Z... just using a harness bar for now. With my dimensions I don't think I could cage and remain streetable. At that point I'd think about selling and getting an Exocet I mean if you have to put on a helmet anyway...

Whoops, meant to say for an FRC vette. For a hatch there's plenty of space :)

Huckleberry & tr8todd - the perspective on the full cage is appreciated and one I'm going to keep in mind if I end up having to remove enough interior to bump me out of the street tire autox classes anyway.

As far as room in FRC vette for a half-cage, I definitely saw a C5 Z06 with that exact setup at my last HPDE. I have no idea on what it took to get it in there though. For the "coupes" - don't they all have a targa tops? As an aside, I always thought those weren't named correctly. That seems to negate one of the big advantages that the standard vette has over the S2K, assuming the Honda had some sort of aftermarket roll protection.

tr8todd wrote: That being said, if your willing to go the extra mile, you can build a fully integrated roll cage that can blend into the interior.

My understanding is that the new Ford GT is constructed with an integral cage so that's always an option since he IS looking for a new track car.

Armitage wrote:

tr8todd wrote: That being said, if your willing to go the extra mile, you can build a fully integrated roll cage that can blend into the interior.

My understanding is that the new Ford GT is constructed with an integral cage so that's always an option since he IS looking for a new track car.

/thread - we're done here

BTW - How much do kidney's fetch these days? Asking for a friend.

I had a trailered '95 M3 track car. It started out as a street driven track car with full interior and morphed into a gutted race car. Sold it because it was too much work, screwing around with the trailer, spares, storage, etc.

The C5 FRC does not have a removable roof panel. My C5 FRC has upgraded suspension, brakes and motor. I drive it to the track and back, no wheel/tire/brake swaps at the track. It has a stock interior which is a compromise. The car is fast and corners very well and the stock seats definitely don't hold you in well. I've thought about how nice it would be to have a harness and seat like the M3, but that's a slippery slope for me. I'm too tall for the standard race seat mounting. I need the seat to be all the way back against the bulkhead. That means the rear inside floor mount is inaccessible. I spoke with XP Motorsports because they do seat/harness/harness bar packages for the C5. They would need to fabricate a seat mount that secures from underneath the car. You can't just drill a hole in the C5 floor, run a bolt and call it a day. The floor has to be reinforced with metal to spread the load. Then I'd need to change the steering wheel. I estimated $3000 to do the seat/harness/harness bar right. At that point I'm starting down that same slippery slope I started down with the M3. I put tons on money into that M3 and sold it for pennies on the dollar because the market for a gutted race car is a lot less than a nice street car. I'm not making that mistake with my C5.

I've elected to stay stock and live with the less than ideal seating position.

mazdeuce wrote: Everyone I've talked to about the pool noodle thing says all you're protecting against is bumping your head getting in and out of the car. The forces involved in a real accident ci press the foam car enough that it's useless. It just makes your rollbar really big and really soft and just as dangerous.

You want SFI 45.1 dual durometer roll padding. Pegasus has it.

maj75 - how tall are you? I'm pretty much average at 5'11", but a long-ish torso. I usually sit closer to the steering wheel than most people my height, granny-style.

Matt B wrote: As far as room in FRC vette for a half-cage, I definitely saw a C5 Z06 with that exact setup at my last HPDE. I have no idea on what it took to get it in there though.

Where was the main hoop relative to the roof bulge that houses the C5Z's stock hoop? If it is below the roof I can't imagine how I would avoid hitting it with my head on the street. Maybe if it was tucked up and behind in the rear window somehow?

But I'm 6'2" with a long torso... I barely fit in a stock C5 as it is.

The issue with the corvettes is that they're really not steel. There aren't that many good points in them where you can attach a rollbar/cage to.