Let's talk track day safety setup: street driven edition

jv8 wrote:

Matt B wrote: As far as room in FRC vette for a half-cage, I definitely saw a C5 Z06 with that exact setup at my last HPDE. I have no idea on what it took to get it in there though.

Where was the main hoop relative to the roof bulge that houses the C5Z's stock hoop? If it is below the roof I can't imagine how I would avoid hitting it with my head on the street. Maybe if it was tucked up and behind in the rear window somehow? But I'm 6'2" with a long torso... I barely fit in a stock C5 as it is.

I really wish I had gotten some better pics of the interior at the time, but I don't remember the cage being incredibly tight against the seats. To your point though, some of the pre-fabbed options like RPM stuff looks way to close to the seats, but it's hard to tell if it is just the seat position in the pics. Definitely an issue though.

This is probably the worst pic I could find of the RPM bar (not the Z I saw at the track). You can see how the driver's seat won't have full range with this particular bar.

Matt B wrote: This is probably the worst pic I could find of the RPM bar (not the Z I saw at the track). You can see how the driver's seat won't have full range with this particular bar.

That is ridiculous. I would just go ahead and replace the wheel center with a bayonet too.

The street driven cars, that are also set up for track days/hillclimbs that I am aware of, all use roll bars (or 1/2 cages) and factory seats. They keep the stock seat belts for everyday use but have harnesses attached to the bar for track use. It's easier in a NA/NB Miata than a coupe than a sedan.

Real talk - you'll never be as safe on a race track in any "compromise" car - period. If you want all out safety you have to go all out - I drive a street car at the race track and most of my laps are a nod towards compromise and a metric ton of track awareness.

I'd go with a safely constructed weld in roll bar in a car with a ton of rear space - Integra/civic/m3/etc. If you want a "safer" compromise car.

For those saying hitting your head on tubing (even padded) would be the "same as hitting the A-pillar" that's just not true (for the average case) : Unlike the interior of your car's A pillar or the like - the protruding circumference of the steel tubes circle takes all of the force. That's a tiny point in the same way that the contact patch of a tire is minuscule. It's super unlikely - on most cars - that you'll hit an interior piece in the same way you would hit a rollbar/steel tubing no matter the padding with no dispersion of force across the various other planes (your helmet does that job).

Huckleberry wrote: That is ridiculous. I would just go ahead and replace the wheel center with a bayonet too.

Yeah it's pretty bad. What's even more hilariously tragic is that is a marketing image they use to sell the darn things.

accordionfolder wrote: I'd go with a safely constructed weld in roll bar in a car with a ton of rear space - Integra/civic/m3/etc. If you want a "safer" compromise car.

That's still a possibility, but I'm probably going to exhaust my options first on these two-seaters.

Are you talking about a street car that will occasionally see track duty ... or what's essentially a dedicated track car that only sees street miles on the way to events (because you don't have a tow vehicle)?

There's a pretty big difference

I'll hold off on my recommendations until I know which one we're talking about.

In reply to LanEvo:

Pretty much a dedicated fun car, but it will see more than just street miles to the track. It will not see daily driver duty, but I'll still need to drive it to probably 6-8 autocross events per year (1.5 hr round trip), plus the aforementioned 3-4 track events which is anywhere from 1.5-5 hrs round trip estimated. If I can manage to keep it from being a pain to get in and out of I'll probably take it on the occasional errand.

People really overestimate the risk of having a deadly crash on the street. When you consider how many miles/hours you spend on public roads, your chances of eating it are pretty slim.

I remember reading some numbers from Levitt and Dubner (the Freakonomics people) that you'd have to drive all day every day for something like 200 years straight to die in a car wreck. Compare that to the risk of an "incident" on the track (and consider how much faster you're going on the track) and I think it makes sense to worry more about track safety. Full cage, seats, harnesses, HANS, ignition kill, fire suppression system, and disabled airbags are not only safer on the track, but makes your on-track time far more enjoyable.

If you're going to spend 40-50 hours per year driving the car on the street (mostly to and from events), and 20-30 days on track, then the trade-off makes perfect sense to me. All IMNSHO of course.

Ending up with an in between track and street car gets you nowhere. Buy a reliable, used race car. Safe and so much more fun. Then just whatever gets you around on the street. Jcamper

I've have every piece of safety gear possible; fire system, cage, fuel cell, 3 layer suit, still wear nomex underwear, HANS, two layer gloves etc. I bought all this stuff back when the Datsun was 30 seconds a lap slower than the Spec Miata lap record, so I'd say I'm big on safety gear.

With that said I don't have an issue with tracking a car that just has a roll hop and standard seats and belts. The difference is you need to behave accordingly. Track days were not meant for people to try and drive their road cars 101%, the point is having a place that you can drive faster than down some canyon road.

My son's Miata has Spec Miata suspension and some other bits; were putting in a roll bar and he's going to do a few track days with it. When he gets to the point where he wants to drive harder I'll put him in one of the race cars.

So obviously my advice is install roll bar that clears your head while street driving and just go and have fun.

In reply to LanEvo:

I get what you're saying, but in my experience there's still a pretty good chance of a collision on the street whether or not it's deadly. I had to avoid some goober just the other day just while taking a test drive after working on the car... at night with no other traffic around. It was not an isolated incident. At least it proved the HP Plus pads were effective.

From what I'm hearing from the hive, there's nothing inherently unsafe about a roll hoop/harness/HANS/helmet as long as you use the stock belts when you're not using the HANS. It's just not enough protection for some people on track.

I don't have statistics to back this up, but I suspect that 5-point belts without HANS is probably safer than 3-point belts without HANS. Yes, the lack of HANS on the 5-points risks basal skull fracture in fast head-on collisions, but it holds you in the seat better which is probably a win in other types of collisions which are more common. After all, people used 5-point belts without HANS for 30 years, and nobody ever suggested they'd have been safer to have used 3-point belts...

This is not an argument against HANS -- I have one, I use it every time I go out on track, and I encourage everyone else to get one.

I started racing with SCCA in 91 (after a few years on bikes) and none of us obviously had a HANS.

I've had one friend wallop a tire barrier so hard that his RX-3 did a flat spin 3 feet in the air. I was right behind him and watched his helmet come within inches of the steering wheel. The car split the water barrier behind the tires and moved the concrete block beihind the water barrier back a couple of inches. Other than the purple racing stripe bruise from the shoulder belts he had no other injuries.

I had another hit the wall in a Shelby Can-Am at LVMS, the hit was so hard the seat broke, he died from a basil skull fracture.

Both accidents were head on at 100mph into the barrier at between a 15-20 degree angle. An RX-3 isn't likely to have better impact absorbtion than a Shelby Can-Am does. Neither driver had a HANS.

The interesting thing that's occurring now is some clubs are requiring some sort of neck device if you use 5/6 point harness.

Thousands of people do track days with nothing more than an open faced helmet. If you have minimal safety gear you need to leave a much bigger margin than I do in a fully caged car.

Tom

Matt B wrote: From what I'm hearing from the hive, there's nothing inherently unsafe about a roll hoop/harness/HANS/helmet as long as you use the stock belts when you're not using the HANS. It's just not enough protection for some people on track.

The closest I've ever come to death was in a student's FD RX7 with a "hybrid" setup: Recaro SRD seats, 4-point Schroth harnesses, and 4-point rollbar.

We went backwards into the bridge abutment at NJMP-Lightning. Between seat movement and belt slack, the back of my head contacted the rollbar hard enough to crack open my brand-new CF helmet and knock me out cold. It was about 2 hours before I fully came to my senses. Headache for days. Messed up balance and stuff for a while.

It's funny because I ran a similar setup in my dual-duty E30 coupe for many years: same Recaro SRD seats even. The only difference was that I used real 6-point Willians harnesses instead of the DOT-approved Schroth 4-points my student had. I would have sworn that setup was safer than stock.

In the end, if you're going to go with a 4-point rollbar behind you, I think you really need fixed-back, FIA-approved seats and proper 5- or 6-point harnesses.

And I don't think stock 3-point belts are ever a good idea if there's a rollbar inches from the back of your mellon. They'll let you move around enough in an impact that you're likely going to contact the bar. At street speeds, I'd be much more worried about that than the infinitesimally low risk of basal skull fracture.

I had a c5z before my m3, I'll echo some of the others, the steel roll hoop structure on that is pretty beefy, it's no cage to be sure but with something like a Brey Krause Harness bar I would thinks its darn near as safe or more as a proper 4 point roll bar in a convertible. If you do want to put a cage in a corvette that means cutting through the body to attach to the steel frame (unless you buy an aluminum frame c6z)

Regarding the setup in my M3.

I have a 4 point roll bar which was made by a local shop in the Chicago area (Red Mist Automotive) It meets the major NASA/SCCA requirements for tube size, landing plate dimensions etc and could in the future be converted to a full cage should I decide to go wheel to wheel.

Now here is where I get into my justifications:

I think a harness bar, fixed back seat, properly routed 6 point harness, hans and helmet is safer and more predictable than a 3 point and stock seat.

I think that a fixed back seat with a stock belt and a well designed roll bar is adequately safe on the street. bearing in mind that I know myself and am hyper aware and alert when driving the toy car on the street. The alignment makes it twitchy, it's noisy and it does things quicker than the avg car. It demands your full attention. thus I feel reasonably certain that I'm more well prepared to avoid an accident in that car than my daily driver.

I primarily do HPDE, Autocross and Time Trials. These activities have a lower car on car incident rate than wheel to wheel racing. for HPDE if there is a faster car I point them buy immediately, if I approach a slower car I leave sufficient space and wait for a point by. Time trials you rarely even see another car nearby. Autox is obviously solo. I know I absolutely would be safer with a full 6-8 point roll cage but I feel that I've taken great stride in improving the safety of myself and my car compared to the first few track days I did with a helmet and stock car.

My .02

LanEvo wrote: We went backwards into the bridge abutment at NJMP-Lightning.

HOW?!

I'm shuttering at the mere thought of this. It's a straightaway into a braking zone... right before 7 right?

Glad you've recovered. Threads like this really push me to accelerate my seat/harness/HANS selection for my NA.

Tom1200 wrote: Thousands of people do track days with nothing more than an open faced helmet. If you have minimal safety gear you need to leave a much bigger margin than I do in a fully caged car.

Agreed. I think this also holds up for the setup I've proposed here, which is probably what you meant.

Also, sorry to hear about your friend in the Can-Am.

LanEvo wrote: The closest I've ever come to death was in a student's FD RX7 with a "hybrid" setup: Recaro SRD seats, 4-point Schroth harnesses, and 4-point rollbar. [.......snip........] In the end, if you're going to go with a 4-point rollbar behind you, I think you really need fixed-back, FIA-approved seats and proper 5- or 6-point harnesses. And I don't think stock 3-point belts are ever a good idea if there's a rollbar inches from the back of your mellon. They'll let you move around enough in an impact that you're likely going to contact the bar. At street speeds, I'd be much more worried about that than the infinitesimally low risk of basal skull fracture.

First of all, ouch. I'm glad you walked away from that one. You have a pretty valid point about the seat type, belts, and distance from the tubing. Let's talk about that, because the specific setup is going to determine how effective or hazardous a 4-point install is going to be.

• Fixed back seats - which ones do you guys like? Which ones have you had bad experiences/failures with? I'm really only interested in upholstered models, because transit time plus it's required by the SCCA Solo rules.

• Seat mounting - is it possible to safely mount them to sliders? Seems like another risk factor/flex/failure point. What else do I need to keep in mind?

• Seat bracing against the harness bar - I've seen some options here with I think the Autopower bars. Seems like a good way to keep the seat from flexing into bonking range. Downsides?

Example:

I do not like the idea of a seat brace that involves a rod pointed straight at my back like the one in that photo.

I like FIA-certified seats, I have Recaro Pole Positions in my car although the cert had expired and was later pulled. I'm replacing them with the next-gen Pole Positions (re-certified) soon.

Matt B wrote: maj75 - how tall are you? I'm pretty much average at 5'11", but a long-ish torso. I usually sit closer to the steering wheel than most people my height, granny-style.

I'm 6'2" but long legs. I don't really have enough leg room as I have to scoot my butt a little forward so my helmet won't hit the roof. A race mount on the floor would give me enough legroom and headroom, but I'm staying off that slippery slope;)

@codrus; I get being worried about being speared but I suspect that since the support rod is clamped it would slide backwards before penetrating anything. In my showroom stock Miata I had a similar set up but it had a bigger plate I.E. more area to spread the load.

On seats I actually prefer aluminum seats; I'm only 5' 7" and 140lbs, with the aluminum seats I can treat it like my single seaters and pour a seat inside the aluminum. They insert varies from 1/4 to 1" thick. I have longer legs, 32" inseam but only a 30" waste.

Tom

Blaise wrote:

LanEvo wrote: We went backwards into the bridge abutment at NJMP-Lightning.

HOW?! I'm shuttering at the mere thought of this. It's a straightaway into a braking zone... right before 7 right?

It was an FD with single dump-truck turbo putting out about 550 hp (supposedly). Wet track. Advanced driver. Level-headed guy; former Army Ranger.

We crested that weird off-camber, uphill corner into the straight. He pulled to the left to overtake a slower car and take the inside approach to 7. With the hair trigger nature of giant turbo into tiny engine, the rear tires suddenly spun up and we swapped ends ... right into the base of the bridge.

For fixed-back seats in a combined street-track car, you really can't do any better than Recaro Pole Positions.

You don't sit as deeply in them as you do with modern "containment" seats, but that makes it easy to get in and out. And they work with stock belts. They're supremely comfortable on long drives. I used to drive to Mosport (9 hrs) and Tremblant (10.5 hrs) in my track car and I swear my back felt better than it would have if I had done the same dristance in my daily driver.

Recaro Pole Positions are for short people. Very short people. The shoulder harness holes are small and located very low. For instance I'm about 6' tall and the shoulder harness holes on Pole Positions are several inches too low for me.

If you're a taller guy, you need to get a set of Recaro SPG's, either regular SPG's or SPG XL's depending on your waist/hip size.

codrus wrote: I do *not* like the idea of a seat brace that involves a rod pointed straight at my back like the one in that photo. I like FIA-certified seats, I have Recaro Pole Positions in my car although the cert had expired and was later pulled. I'm replacing them with the next-gen Pole Positions (re-certified) soon.

Anything wrong with them? If they fit in an NA I may be interested.

docwyte wrote: Recaro Pole Positions are for short people. Very short people. The shoulder harness holes are small and located very low. For instance I'm about 6' tall and the shoulder harness holes on Pole Positions are several inches too low for me. If you're a taller guy, you need to get a set of Recaro SPG's, either regular SPG's or SPG XL's depending on your waist/hip size.

But will they fit in a miata?

LanEvo wrote: We crested that weird off-camber, uphill corner into the straight. He pulled to the left to overtake a slower car and take the inside approach to 7. With the hair trigger nature of giant turbo into tiny engine, the rear tires suddenly spun up and we swapped ends ... right into the base of the bridge.

Wow. Did the roll bar have SFI padding? I still shudder at the idea of hitting a roll bar so hard it breaks your helmet.