Let's talk track day safety setup: street driven edition

Blaise wrote:

LanEvo wrote: We went backwards into the bridge abutment at NJMP-Lightning.

HOW?! I'm shuttering at the mere thought of this. It's a straightaway into a braking zone... right before 7 right? Glad you've recovered. Threads like this really push me to accelerate my seat/harness/HANS selection for my NA.

I had a similar ride with a student. We went backwards into the end of the pit wall at Thunderbolt and hit into the concrete. Advanced driver. Fastest part of the track... he got crowded during an over-take and lifted with a little wheel input and wheeeeee... round we went. Stock Subie BRZ with 3 point belts in the wet. It didn't slow down much before the first hit. Which was big. Then it went like a top, banging down the wall a bit. I ached EVERYWHERE for a couple days but nothing busted more than a smashed elbow from whacking it on the ebrake handle and a ruined $400 helmet from bashing a dent into it on something. Driver was fine. Car, not so much.

I guess the point of me typing that was that cars are really well made today and while you are certainly safer in a well made cage, halo, hans, etc... and I am an advocate of going all in these days... you are not unprotected in a modern street car. I would feel safer in a 2017 BMW M2 with no additional protection than I would in a half-assed race car of the same performance level that still passes tech.

If you are going to do it - do it right, all the way. Or not at all. (IMNSHO)

^ This is part of why I've thought about just buying a BRZ to track instead of half-assing my miata.

Would you prefer to be in a stock BRZ with just a helmet or a miata with a roll bar, seat, harness, and HANS?

Thanks for the input. NJMP is also my home track so this is very relevant.

Yes, Recaro Pole Position will fit in a miata. Hope you're short.

I'd rather be in a car with a proper safety system, so assuming everything is properly installed and spaced out in the miata, I'd rather be in the setup miata.

Well, I wouldn't because I'm too tall for them and my head sticks up past the windshield header.

But if I actually fit in one, then I'd prefer the setup miata.

Yeah. That's the thing. I'm 6'2.

Blaise wrote: ^ This is part of why I've thought about just buying a BRZ to track instead of half-assing my miata. Would you prefer to be in a stock BRZ with just a helmet or a miata with a roll bar, seat, harness, and HANS?

That is a loaded question. I would prefer not to be in a crash.

Here is how I see it - very few crashes are rollovers. Very few crashes involving a Miata are going to be faster than highway speeds when you finally hit something. Most will be glancing blows. You are more likely to crush your left foot than suffer a head injury. But, planning for the best case scenario is risky business. And deciding how much is ok is up to you. For me - it's all or nothing these days. I am not terribly risk adverse, generally speaking, and I have driven some very sketchy stuff very quickly over the years. I have also gone on record here saying "If you are cool with it and it passes tech, fine by me". But, maybe not fine FOR me.

I have friends who have not threaded the needle as luckily as I have and seeing them come out in a wheel chair while their mangled legs heal from surgery or looking at their badly burned hands has re-calibrated my instruments as I have gotten older (EDIT: these were W2W racing crashes, not DE stuff). Maybe I'm that good. More likely I'm lucky. There are so many more ways to suffer injury than a rollbar can cover that I hate that it's the deciding factor in these threads. Comprehensive crash protection is so much more than holding the roof up. You can destroy your knee joint smacking it on those cool looking door bars when flailing around in a dust up. You can carve a channel in your forehead on that net buckle you welded too close to your helmet so it was easy to open. Little details.

So, while I will go out in pretty much anything in good condition in an advanced/instructor HPDE group where speeds and margins are "reasonable" I don't take much joy from driving around with those parameters so I do it less and less. It's boring to be in control at all times. And it's outside my risk window to push hard when naked.

I will not drive at race pace in anything less than a full, well designed roll cage with foot intrusion bars, seat, fire system, fancy necklace and nets. Everything gets high density or dual density padding. I wear the firesuit. I put the nets up. And I push as hard as I can feeling I have done as much as I can to ensure success in the event of failure. It allows me to clear my head and drive the car.

Long/short - if I'm driving at 100% it's because I've prepped to 100% of my ability. If I'm just peddling around at track day speeds then I'm not embracing much risk and I don't care what's in the car as long as it's not more dangerous than stock.

^ I know. This board and the HPDE community in general has actually been great about pushing the all-or-nothing mentality. Problem is that for the next year or so I'm a city-living person with no way to store a proper race car.

That leaves two options. Put race seats/harness/HANS in my miata (otherwise stock aside from roll bar), or track an 86. I know it's a loaded question and not ideal regardless. But it's that or not go to the track - and I already gave up tracking motorcycles for cars which is arguably a big boost in safety already.

Blaise wrote: ^ I know. This board and the HPDE community in general has actually been great about pushing the all-or-nothing mentality. Problem is that for the next year or so I'm a city-living person with no way to store a proper race car. That leaves two options. Put race seats/harness/HANS in my miata (otherwise stock aside from roll bar), or track an 86. I know it's a loaded question and not ideal regardless. But it's that or not go to the track - and I already gave up tracking motorcycles for cars which is arguably a big boost in safety already.

Your 3rd option is to rent a proper race car. Save the $ on the truck, trailer, storage and so on. Show up, get in and drive. These guys are local to NJMP. Jon is an old friend. http://www.drive-gear.com/

Huckleberry wrote:

Blaise wrote: ^ I know. This board and the HPDE community in general has actually been great about pushing the all-or-nothing mentality. Problem is that for the next year or so I'm a city-living person with no way to store a proper race car. That leaves two options. Put race seats/harness/HANS in my miata (otherwise stock aside from roll bar), or track an 86. I know it's a loaded question and not ideal regardless. But it's that or not go to the track - and I already gave up tracking motorcycles for cars which is arguably a big boost in safety already.

Your 3rd option is to rent a proper race car. Save the $ on the truck, trailer, storage and so on. Show up, get in and drive. These guys are local to NJMP. Jon is an old friend. http://www.drive-gear.com/

Is it just me or do they not list prices? Just want to get an idea.

In reply to Blaise:

I think it's going to be dependent on what tires you want, type of event... an HPDE with 4 20 min sessions is going to be cheaper than an 8hr track day which is going to be cheaper than a race weekend. Watkins Glen is going to use a ton more fuel than Lime Rock Park, etc.

I think you would be safe assuming $800 to $1200 per day but give them a call.

In reply to Blaise:

I got quotes for renting a Spec Miata from a different company for a weekend at Summit Point and it was $900 for a 2 day PDX event. My understanding is it changes based on many things, including whether the event is part of a race weekend or not (This wasn't for reference). Sticker shock is kinda high but compared to all of the safety equipment, the vehicle itself, putting tires/brakes on it, fuel in it, time spent maintaining, etc. I get it.

Also of note I'm in the same situation as you living in a high rise building in a city. I can do work on the car but having a race vehicle and tow setup isn't going to work. I have an NC and rather than renting I bought the FM transformer roll bar. Roll bar covers any unlikely situations where I'm not shiny side up, OE stuff hopefully covers the rest. It's a relatively modern car with side impact airbags etc. I don't push the car though in anything faster than I'd see in AutoX because I'd rather not test any of that out. I'm new to it so it's all fun, but I'm not sure how that's going to work once I'm running on the same track for the 2nd or 3rd weekend. Hopefully I'll be in a different place in terms of what's practical for a vehicle at that point, if not rentals may be the plan.

I mean, the cost of the car is just the cost of the car. Doesn't cost anything to own except tires/brakes/fuel and that's minimal for a stock power NA/NB. And I already own a truck and have access to a trailer.

I'm sure the $900/weekend rate is completely understandable, but makes a weekend go from being ~$800 ($600 entry, $100 fuel, $100 tire/brake life) to double that. Of course, probably shouldn't put a price on my safety but at the moment it's an issue. I can much more easily swallow $10k for a race car (which you can sell later if you don't wad it up) than a $900 rental per weekend.

At 6'2" you're not going to fit into a Recaro Pole Position. You'll need the Recaro SPG and depending on how skinny you are, the SPG XL.

I dunno about "instructor" pace vs race pace. I know when I'm on the track in my E36 M3 I'm hitting 120+ mph. That's plenty fast enough to cause some serious harm...

Blaise wrote: I mean, the cost of the car is just the cost of the car. Doesn't cost anything to own except tires/brakes/fuel and that's minimal for a stock power NA/NB. And I already own a truck and have access to a trailer. I'm sure the $900/weekend rate is completely understandable, but makes a weekend go from being ~$800 ($600 entry, $100 fuel, $100 tire/brake life) to double that. Of course, probably shouldn't put a price on my safety but at the moment it's an issue. I can much more easily swallow $10k for a race car (which you can sell later if you don't wad it up) than a $900 rental per weekend.

If you are being honest about your costs... it's not really that expensive. I was keeping a $20k truck, with registration and insurance. A $7k trailer with registration and some theft insurance, maintaining both, paying for the $200 of fuel to get there and back every time... and I still hadn't bothered to consider cost of race tires, brakes, all the time to go over it and prep it and fuel it.

All you do is pay the man and drive the car. For $900 for 2 days it's a no-brainer IMO if you only go 3-4 times a year. When you get to 10+ then the dynamic changes but you won't be trying to save money at that point :)

Still... if you are buying a race car anyway - do your homework. You don't want a build that just meets the lowest requirements. You want a comprehensive, well built car. Those are usually no bargain on the surface.

I'm a gym person. 6'2 220 but not fat. Being 6'2, I kinda assumed I had no choice but to get an aluminum seat and bolt it to the floor.

I see some folks have put an SPG in their miata but again I'm not sure if there will be enough space. To do it right for my height I really need a drop floor and an aluminum seat. And a roll cage. Sigh..

I'm 6'2 with a long torso and can work in an NA with a stock floor with enough seat layback. I sat in one with a seat drop recently though and felt a lot more comfortable in it.

What I was wondering about was whether the drop floor really solves the problem or not. After all, if you were 8' tall and dropped the floor a foot (ignoring the obvious ground clearance issue) in a rollover you're still at risk because you can't possibly make the cage low enough as the floor sticks out past it.

Going by Spec rules, the floor cut involves thicker steel and isn't allowed to go below the frame rail. In the grand scheme of things it's much better than bashing your head in a rollover. Here's a thread with some pictures of a build with one and some people discussing it.

If you're at a track on a weekend when SM is running find the tall people and ask if you can sit in their car. They tend to be extremely sympathetic and will point you in every direction possible if what they have doesn't work.

Blaise wrote:

codrus wrote: I like FIA-certified seats, I have Recaro Pole Positions in my car although the cert had expired and was later pulled. I'm replacing them with the next-gen Pole Positions (re-certified) soon.

Anything wrong with them? If they fit in an NA I may be interested. ... But will they fit in a miata?

They're clearly not as rigid as they were when new (more creaking with cornering loads), and there are some minor upholstery issues (they're 10 years old). I don't trust them for track use any more, although I wouldn't have any qualms about using them for autox. I'll keep you mind for when they come out, but there are a few other folks in line ahead of you. :)

They fit an NB pretty well, there's some interference between the "wing" and the door card, but it self-clearances fairly well. I think they fit NAs as well, a friend of mine with a '93 had a similar setup. I had them installed by a local race shop because I don't trust my own fab skills when it comes to safety-critical parts like seat backets so I'm not sure if it needed a BFH on the transmission tunnel or not, but I don't think so. The rear seat mount is cut out to get it lower.

FWIW, I'm 6' tall and the shoulder harness holes line up just fine.

In reply to codrus:

Is that where your seat is mounted/positioned while driving? It's proximity to the roll hoop looks like a "DANGER WILL ROBINSON!" scenario.

The photo makes it look closer than it actually is, but that's the reality of having roll bars in a Miata and being 6 feet tall.