Level 5 owner arrested

codrus wrote:

etifosi wrote: It isn't being alleged that he operated a payday loan company. It IS alleged that said company used unfair & deceptive practices to scam folks out of more money.

Isn't that the basic business model of payday loan companies?

It's the basic business model of pretty much any "credit" based lending, honestly I think bail bond places are even worse as they prey on the exact same demographic, but usually have even more collateral at their fingertips than a simple paycheck.

On another note, suppose the Feds are successful in retrieving the 1.23 billion dollars.....what is the over under bet on if it ever even finds its way back to the alleged victims?

And, what about China? Lending is all those trillions...Theres no way we can pay all that back! What a bunch do scumbags. Why should we have to be responsible for our own decisions?

There is a fine line between dirtbags taking advantage of those in a precarious situation, and giving the people what they want at their own peril. Payday places aren't forcing money into the pockets of the innocent, they're obliging the poor decisions made my the masses. I'm sure there's not a disclosure made in full transparency and good faith, but like mentioned before, it's all there to be read by the borrower. People get too antsy with the thought of a few dozen dollars out of thin air to be bothered with the pesky details.

Before anyone gets their pitchforks out over that rant, know that at one time I was stuck in the fast-cash revolving door, with a 4 digit payday debt on my back, that I carried around for over a year, borrowing that debt forward to pay for my last loan. I know what this is like. I learned MY lesson from MY mistakes. I dug my way out by sacrificing and going without for a time. Boo hoo for me...

4cylndrfury wrote: And, what about China? Lending is all those trillions...Theres no way we can pay all that back! What a bunch do scumbags. Why should we have to be responsible for our own decisions? There is a fine line between dirtbags taking advantage of those in a precarious situation, and giving the people what they want at their own peril. Payday places aren't forcing money into the pockets of the innocent, they're obliging the poor decisions made my the masses. I'm sure there's not a disclosure made in full transparency and good faith, but like mentioned before, it's all there to be read by the borrower. People get too antsy with the thought of a few dozen dollars out of thin air to be bothered with the pesky details. Before anyone gets their pitchforks out over that rant, know that at one time I was stuck in the fast-cash revolving door, with a 4 digit payday debt on my back, that I carried around for over a year, borrowing that debt forward to pay for my last loan. I know what this is like. I learned MY lesson from MY mistakes. I dug my way out by sacrificing and going without for a time. Boo hoo for me...

For the most part I agree with you. But I also wonder how many people out there just don't know any better. How many people grew up watching their parents make similar decisions (assuming they had parents around) and assumed that it had to be this way, or that struggling financially was "normal". If the majority of people in your life were taking out payday loans, you might be likely to do the same. Some people in that situation can see the problem and break the cycle, but I'd be shocked if that number were very high.

iadr wrote: And most or all fast food places, and bars, and cheap brands of nutritionless salty, simple carb frozen food and... NO wait. Personal responsibility. Full stop. No excuses. I've paid less than $80 interest in my life. Less than zero sympathy.

So the fault lies with the poor people who make decisions based on what little money they have?

Is that what you are suggesting?

alfadriver wrote:

iadr wrote: And most or all fast food places, and bars, and cheap brands of nutritionless salty, simple carb frozen food and... NO wait. Personal responsibility. Full stop. No excuses. I've paid less than $80 interest in my life. Less than zero sympathy.

So the fault lies with the poor people who make decisions based on what little money they have? Is that what you are suggesting?

Everyone makes decisions based on what little money they have. Its all relative. I have a mortgage on my house where as my wealthy buddy just bought a house cash because his money was earning less then the 3% interest rate my mortgage cost me.

nocones wrote: Honestly though don't quite a few industries prey on the poor... Some ran by the government. It's pretty much an American past time. Payday loans, gambling industry, subprime banking industry, tobacco industy, Mitsubishi motors, student loans, the Lottery. These all pretty much skim a little off the top to make peole rich off those that have the least.

Hey now, most of those prey on people with poor math skills and/or impulse control, only payday loans prey on the poor specifically. You don't have to be bad at math or have poor impulse control to fall prey to them (if you're desperate enough), but it sure helps.

iadr wrote: And most or all fast food places, and bars, and cheap brands of nutritionless salty, simple carb frozen food and... NO wait. Personal responsibility. Full stop. No excuses. I've paid less than $80 interest in my life. Less than zero sympathy.

This has nothing to do with whether this guy broke the law. If I make the poor choice of leaving $100 on the seat of my car, I haven't broken the law, but if you take it, you have.

4cylndrfury wrote: And, what about China? Lending is all those trillions...Theres no way we can pay all that back! What a bunch do scumbags. Why should we have to be responsible for our own decisions? There is a fine line between dirtbags taking advantage of those in a precarious situation, and giving the people what they want at their own peril. Payday places aren't forcing money into the pockets of the innocent, they're obliging the poor decisions made my the masses. I'm sure there's not a disclosure made in full transparency and good faith, but like mentioned before, it's all there to be read by the borrower. People get too antsy with the thought of a few dozen dollars out of thin air to be bothered with the pesky details. Before anyone gets their pitchforks out over that rant, know that at one time I was stuck in the fast-cash revolving door, with a 4 digit payday debt on my back, that I carried around for over a year, borrowing that debt forward to pay for my last loan. I know what this is like. I learned MY lesson from MY mistakes. I dug my way out by sacrificing and going without for a time. Boo hoo for me...

Yes boo hoo for you; why should you have had to learn that way? Why is it legal for them to gouge poor people for interest rates that are illegal in any other setting?

Sometimes we should actually look out for other people, and one way we do that is by making things illegal. Payday loans should be illegal. Full stop. If someone has bad credit they simply should not be allowed to borrow money.

@iadr: What about the "personal responsibility" of the lenders? Is it not expected of people to be decent human beings? It's okay to knowingly and intentionally berkeley someone over because it's legal? I don't want to live in that world.

dculberson wrote: @iadr: What about the "personal responsibility" of the lenders?

It is their responsibility to follow the laws governing their trade. No more, no less.

Is it not expected of people to be decent human beings?

Apreciated yes. Historically, it would seem to be the exception.

It's okay to knowingly and intentionally berkeley someone over because it's legal?

It would appear to be the standard operating principle of Wall Street and Washington. Hard not to see it. I don't see anyone objecting.

I don't want to live in that world.

We have options?

I heard (and I like) the 'new' economic class descriptions:

• lower class = you have no money. you get a paycheck and all is spent right as you receive the next.
• middle class = you have less than no money. You have an income (could be VERY big even), but your house loan, car loan(s), student loan(s), and credit card debt mean you are in the hole.
• upper class = you have a positive net worth because you have little/no debt.

Back on-topic: payday loan stores, car title loan stores, and rent-to-own places are illegal in many states it seems. Lotteries, on the other hand, are actually RUN by the government.

dculberson wrote: ...why should you have had to learn that way?

Step 1: Turn on Stove
Step 2: Touch Hot stove
Step 3: Finger hurts like berk
Step 4: Learn never to touch hot stove

Or, should all stoves be banned because OMFGHOTHURTS?

Similar argument: Alcohol makes driving difficult - so, ban alcohol.

No one was being gouged, they were being charged the rate that was outlined in the documents they signed of their own free will. Gouging is "We granted the loan at 5% interest, but now we are collecting 150%, because we are the mob...sorry, your luck sucks"

The lesson in my story wasnt "Dont borrow money from payday loansharks because paying it back is hard", the lesson was "read the fine print and weigh out whether or not its better to have the loan at the expense of the rate, or better to not have whatever the cash is for, but stay out from under the loan".

Learning is hard. Ban learning

NOHOME wrote:

dculberson wrote: @iadr: What about the "personal responsibility" of the lenders?

It is their responsibility to follow the laws governing their trade. No more, no less.

Is it not expected of people to be decent human beings?

Apreciated yes. Historically, it would seem to be the exception.

It's okay to knowingly and intentionally berkeley someone over because it's legal?

It would appear to be the standard operating principle of Wall Street and Washington. Hard not to see it. I don't see anyone objecting.

I don't want to live in that world.

We have options?

If you don't see the objections you aren't looking or are ignoring them.

We have options - make payday lending illegal. We managed to do so here in Ohio, and somehow a few of them weaseled through into another lending loophole so after dramatically shrinking they're growing again.

We have all sorts of laws intended to keep people from profiting from the suffering of others. No slavery, no indentured servitude, no harvesting the organs of the living for profit, etc. I put this in the same class of law.

4cylndrfury wrote:

dculberson wrote: ...why should you have had to learn that way?

Step 1: Turn on Stove Step 2: Touch Hot stove Step 3: Finger hurts like berk Step 4: Learn never to touch hot stove Or, should all stoves be banned because OMFGHOTHURTS? Similar argument: Alcohol makes driving difficult - so, ban alcohol. No one was being gouged, they were being charged the rate that was outlined in the documents they signed of their own free will. Gouging is "We granted the loan at 5% interest, but now we are collecting 150%, because we are the mob...sorry, your luck sucks" The lesson in my story wasnt "Dont borrow money from payday loansharks because paying it back is hard", the lesson was "read the fine print and weigh out whether or not its better to have the loan at the expense of the rate, or better to not have whatever the cash is for, but stay out from under the loan". Learning is hard. Ban learning

A stove is used to cook. Alcohol is used to lower social barriers and enjoy life. How is a payday loan used in a non-harmful way? We as a society decided not to allow loan sharks and yet they've squeezed in under this BS. They should be illegal because their product is solely harmful and in no way beneficial.

Something can be gouging even if it's going by the exact price advertised. I think you need to study up on what "price gouging" is if you think that's not the case.

Yes we should do a better job of teaching personal finance in schools. I think that education should start very young, too. But "let them get burned" is not a good response to a poverty inducing cycle. Your method equates to "berkeley poor people." I would rather not let our society operate that way.

Well, we can agree that financial education is poor to non-existant in the current Pub Ed system.

Even worse in areas that these scum pray upon.

4cylndrfury wrote: Step 1: Turn on Stove Step 2: Touch Hot stove Step 3: Finger hurts like berk Step 4: Learn never to touch hot stove

Fixed it for you:

Step 1: Turn on Stove

Step 2: Tell customers stove is cold

Step 3: Sell customer Band-Aid for $300

Step 4: Learn never to listen to their advice

This is reality. It is your responsibility to not get eaten. Ask Darwin.

But what if the tiger is dressed up as a wildebeest, effectively misrepresenting himself?

I get your point, but it takes two.

NOHOME wrote: This is reality. It is your responsibility to not get eaten. Ask Darwin.

So you think all humans are animals, incapable of elevating themselves above the level of beast? So best not try?

Why get dressed in the morning and go to work? Why not hunt your fellow man for prey instead? Eat the flesh of man, drink the blood of children, and bask in the lamentations of women.

Seriously - what are you trying to communicate with your post?

In reply to dculberson:

At least you know who does not want any compassion when someone screws them over. Pretty clear that a few posters are fair game for that kind of crap.

kb58 wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: Step 1: Turn on Stove Step 2: Touch Hot stove Step 3: Finger hurts like berk Step 4: Learn never to touch hot stove

Fixed it for you: Step 1: Turn on Stove Step 2: Tell customers stove is cold Step 3: Sell customer Band-Aid for $300 Step 4: Learn never to listen to their advice

Fixed it for you

Step 1: Turn on Stove
Step 2: Tell customers stove is Hot with a disclosure
Step 3: Sell customer Band-Aid for $300 when they choose to ignore the parts they dont care to pay attention to and burn themselves even though you told them it was hot in the first place
Step 4: ?

There are times when reform is necessary to protect people. Consumer rights are a real thing that need protected. For example, when one calls a service provider to cancel their services, and are in full and legal standing to do so (i.e. not under contract or in some other binding agreement), it should be done. If its not, that should be illegal, and if theres no way to force the provider to discontinue service, then there needs to be legal reform in order to make it so. This is a real world scenario that I've seen dozens of times. This is a real example of when we need protected from the big bad bully...when youre helpless to avoid detriment due to a lack of control or a systematic failure.

I just think that payday loans are not the same. In my mind, its a "Teach a man to fish versus giving a man a fish" situation I suppose

dculberson wrote:

NOHOME wrote: This is reality. It is your responsibility to not get eaten. Ask Darwin.

So you think all humans are animals, incapable of elevating themselves above the level of beast? So best not try? Why get dressed in the morning and go to work? Why not hunt your fellow man for prey instead? Eat the flesh of man, drink the blood of children, and bask in the lamentations of women. Seriously - what are you trying to communicate with your post?

I am saying that, regardless of where you are on the food-chain, the world is full of predators out there and it is our personal responsibility to not get eaten.

I am less outraged that Scott Tucker preyed on these people than I am at the fact that we have fostered such a huge population of weak individuals to infect the herd's gene pool and attract these predators.

Yeah, I get that Mr Tucker is not a compassionate person, but good grief, how did North America end up with so many illiterate financial suckers that the payday loan industry can pull this off? Furthermore, how do you fix the problem? I myself thought usury WAS illegal?

And by the way, just because it comes wrapped in Saran Wrap, that steak was still a living creature with a lamenting mother. You don't need to rise above anything, just see the world for what it is and look after yourself.

@kb58

Predators are almost always camouflaged, pretty much day#1 in the Prey/Predator school. Their job to learn how, other side's job to learn how to spot.

kb58 wrote:

iadr wrote: And most or all fast food places, and bars, and cheap brands of nutritionless salty, simple carb frozen food and... NO wait. Personal responsibility. Full stop. No excuses. I've paid less than $80 interest in my life. Less than zero sympathy.

This has nothing to do with whether this guy broke the law. If I make the poor choice of leaving $100 on the seat of my car, I haven't broken the law, but if you take it, you have.

+1. He was arrested for misrepresenting what he was selling not for running a payday loan company. Whether or not you believe in social Darwinism, it is not the issue here. He didn't obtain the proper licenses to operate in some states. He lied about the amount that would be needed to repay the loan. He charged higher the the legal interest rate. He created false documents as to who owned the company.

In the meantime, the indictment is seeking foreiture of $2 billion in addition to 6 Ferraris, 4 Porsches and a Learjet.

http://www.examiner.com/article/racer-scott-tucker-indicted-for-driving-people-into-debt-thru-pay-day-loan-scams

In reply to fasted58:

I have to wonder if this is actually about righting a wrong, or just padding the government budget for the next year.