stealthfighter1 wrote: lincoln mk8 motor+t5+cobra injectors+ power adder of choice = cheap+easy+fast...
And incredibly heavy not to mention HUGE!!!
stealthfighter1 wrote: lincoln mk8 motor+t5+cobra injectors+ power adder of choice = cheap+easy+fast...
And incredibly heavy not to mention HUGE!!!
stealthfighter1 wrote: lincoln mk8 motor+t5+cobra injectors+ power adder of choice = cheap+easy+fast...
I would choose nitrous and T3650. The T5 unless it's all "G-Force"'d won't live. Plus I would add 03-04 Cobra exhaust manifolds, coilovers, 4.56's. 
Javelin wrote:stealthfighter1 wrote: lincoln mk8 motor+t5+cobra injectors+ power adder of choice = cheap+easy+fast...And incredibly heavy not to mention HUGE!!!
i thought it was an alum block?....
stealthfighter1 wrote:Javelin wrote:i thought it was an alum block?....stealthfighter1 wrote: lincoln mk8 motor+t5+cobra injectors+ power adder of choice = cheap+easy+fast...And incredibly heavy not to mention HUGE!!!
It is.
Aluminum block does not automatically make it light man. You still have 4 steel cams, 32 steel valves, 25' of timing chain, etc, etc, etc.
Elsewhere it was discussed that an all-iron Ford 302 and an all-aluminum LS1 are the same weight, because they are. The Windsor has much thinner webbing, less bolts, shorter deck, etc, etc. All of that adds up, and fast.
The Mod/Coyote is a monster. Not only is it the same physical size as a Boss 429, it's about the same weight.
makes sense, ....i'm on a mod ford high right now...
stealthfighter1 wrote: .i'm on a mod ford high right now...
Once you work on one, you will have had the vaccination and you will be cured....
BTW: 4.6L DOHC Aluminum Block 425 lbs From here: http://www.sullivanperformance.com/yvs450/tech/tech1.htm
The best number I can get on 302's are 470-490lbs. The pushrods, rockers, and intake weigh the 302 bad.
Ranger50 wrote: Once you work on one, you will have had the vaccination and you will be cured....
I get the opposite effect. Kind of an automotive Stockholm Syndrome.
I'm on an LT1 kick right now, for instance, since I've spent a couple weeks putting a SBC-based jigsaw puzzle together. LT1s are like SBCs but shorter in the nose (good) and no distributor in the back to eat firewall clearance (also good) and the L99 can give you all that with only 4.3l (best). And the stock LT1 aluminum heads can work with the 265 bores, but the iron L99/B-body LT1 heads can make more power..
Could be worse. One time I was ass-deep in 928 wiring harness, and I started to actually appreciate how everything was laid out. ( shudder )
Javelin wrote: Elsewhere it was discussed that an all-iron Ford 302 and an all-aluminum LS1 are the same weight, because they are. The Windsor has much thinner webbing, less bolts, shorter deck, etc, etc. All of that adds up, and fast.
So Ford 302 + aluminum heads (aluminum intakes? are they available) would actually be lighter than the vaunted LS1?
Interesting...
z31maniac wrote:Javelin wrote: Elsewhere it was discussed that an all-iron Ford 302 and an all-aluminum LS1 are the same weight, because they are. The Windsor has much thinner webbing, less bolts, shorter deck, etc, etc. All of that adds up, and fast.So Ford 302 + aluminum heads (aluminum intakes? are they available) would actually be lighter than the vaunted LS1? Interesting...
Supposedly. (And all EFI 302's have aluminum intakes, and that's what was quoted I believe). That's why 5.0 swaps are still so viable. Compact external dimensions, light weight, and good power. The original Cobra was good with them for a reason 
I'd love to lighten one down a lot (aluminum heads, smaller intake/ITB's, lighter rotating assembly) with a T-5 and drop it in something equally small and light like an SA RX-7 with more lightening done (fiberglass body panels, lighter wheels, etc).
Seriously for 400bhp in the lightest package a V8 ain't the answer.
Just a little heads up on real world applications and weights. My Ford V8 RX7, with nothing done to lighten the car, weighed LESS than a stock same year Turbo RX7 (2720lbs vs 2800lbs). Since the cars were identical from the cowl rearward (full interior) then all the difference was in the nose. Yes, the Ford V8 with aluminum intake was about identical in weight to the turbo rotary.
Yes, you will get ligher 4 cyls, but they won't make liveable 400 hp. And once you start down the path of iron block turbo 4 cyls, you get back into light pushrod V8 territory in a hurry.
Holy hell there's some heavy motors in here.
Toyota 2zzge (celica gts, lotus elise) motor. Dry weight is under 300lbs including transmission.
I have no idea what trans to use with it RWD. I'm guessing RWD Corolla trans.
Throw some forged pistons and rods in it for a reasonable amount of money, boost it. It'll hold 400hp easy.
One issue I have with the Ford 302 is the EFI manifolds are all huge and heavy devices. Why is it the carb intakes for these things are normal looking and the cars still had good torque and throttle response but with the move to EFI the runners are crazy long with a plenum in the middle?
It makes me wonder what an RPM Air Gap converted to port EFI would act like and if it would be worth the cost.
Chris_V wrote: Yes, you will get ligher 4 cyls, but they won't make liveable 400 hp. And once you start down the path of iron block turbo 4 cyls, you get back into light pushrod V8 territory in a hurry.
HA! Bull. Turbo Busa will make that no problem.
In reply to 93EXCivic:
What trans are you working with again and how happy is it with a 9500 rpm input RPM? It seems workable but not nearly as easy to work out as a lot of other suggested solutions.
pres589 wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: What trans are you working with again and how happy is it with a 9500 rpm input RPM? It seems workable but not nearly as easy to work out as a lot of other suggested solutions.
Ok you maybe right about that. But I have a really hard time believing that a V8 is the lightest way to make 400hp.
pres589 wrote: It makes me wonder what an RPM Air Gap converted to port EFI would act like and if it would be worth the cost.
Forget converting it, just slap the new MSD EFI in place of the carb and go. That's going to be the hot ticket. Light, easy, and EFI.
93EXCivic wrote:pres589 wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: What trans are you working with again and how happy is it with a 9500 rpm input RPM? It seems workable but not nearly as easy to work out as a lot of other suggested solutions.Ok you maybe right about that. But I have a really hard time believing that a V8 is the lightest way to make 400hp.
It's not. It just fulfills the "cheap and easy" requirements pretty well.
93EXCivic wrote: But I have a really hard time believing that a V8 is the lightest way to make 400hp.
Sorry man, but it probably is. For a 4-cylinder to deliver that level of power it will have to be boosted, which adds weight. Most turbo/supercharged engines live better with an iron block, so there's even more weight.
A V-6 might work out, but at that point the V8 wouldn't really be that much more weight (N/A to N/A) and wouldn't be as high-strung. There's a reason why the V8 configuration became so popular.
The lightest would be an aftermarket aluminum 302 Ford block with aluminum heads and the aforementioned Air Gap + MSD EFI. That would be lighter than even an N/A rotary depending upon the rotating assembly/valvetrain.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Holy hell there's some heavy motors in here. Toyota 2zzge (celica gts, lotus elise) motor. Dry weight is under 300lbs including transmission.
I find it extremely hard to believe that the fully dressed engine and trans are under 300Lbs. Documentation? Also, if they make 400HP on boost, why do the boosted Elise's barely break into the 300's?
93EXCivic wrote:Chris_V wrote: Yes, you will get ligher 4 cyls, but they won't make liveable 400 hp. And once you start down the path of iron block turbo 4 cyls, you get back into light pushrod V8 territory in a hurry.HA! Bull. Turbo Busa will make that no problem.
When I did a quick search for the output of a turbo Busa kit on race fuel, I only found a measley 265 hp. Can you give a link? I must be missing something...
Javelin wrote:93EXCivic wrote: But I have a really hard time believing that a V8 is the lightest way to make 400hp.Sorry man, but it probably is. For a 4-cylinder to deliver that level of power it will have to be boosted, which adds weight. Most turbo/supercharged engines live better with an iron block, so there's even more weight. A V-6 might work out, but at that point the V8 wouldn't really be that much more weight (N/A to N/A) and wouldn't be as high-strung. There's a reason why the V8 configuration became so popular.
There's plenty of aluminum block 4 cylinders that live just fine at that power level. 400whp isn't some crazy unattainable requires-a-balls-out-build number anymore.
But the big question is whether or not the expense is worth the 100-150lbs you could easily save. Without really knowing all the backstory to the OP's question, we can't really answer that.
I do know that an S2000 motor is way too expensive, so based purely on that, i'm going V8. But it's certainly not the lightest option.
In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:
What kind of weights do those turbo DOHC 4-cylinders have with all of the turbos, intercooler, plumbing, etc though Ben? THAT's the issue (not that they can't make the power or are too expensive).
It should be reasonable to find a weight on an S2K drivetrain + turbo kit for example (as that's probably the easiest RWD 4cyl/400HP there is) and then compare it to an N/A 5.0 / T5 combo.
Javelin wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Holy hell there's some heavy motors in here. Toyota 2zzge (celica gts, lotus elise) motor. Dry weight is under 300lbs including transmission.I find it extremely hard to believe that the fully dressed engine and trans are under 300Lbs. Documentation? Also, if they make 400HP on boost, why do the boosted Elise's barely break into the 300's?
Quote the whole post, please. Note i said forged pistons and rods. (for longevity's sake ONLY) Let's not play games.
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html
That shows dry weight as being about 250lbs for just engine. The transmissions that attach to these things are pretty small and light. (in FWD form, like i said above, i don't know what RWD trans works off the top of my head.)
That leaves a pretty large amount of head room.
Here's a stock bottom end (ALL stock, including rods and pistons), stock cams 2zzge making 402whp. http://youtu.be/Bh5BzFYJFmU
He's not the first to do this. Guy by the username of "Smaay" made 425whp on his 100% stock motor 2001 Blue Celica GTS at least 3-4 years ago. The car held together for 2-3 years before he rebuilt it, and it was only because he was reverting the car back to stock to sell it.
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