How do you feel about the way Porsche's sound? A 2.5L Boxster would be roughly the same price as a NA/NB Miata in comparable condition and, while it isn't a V8, I think it's one of the Great Engine Sounds of history.
How do you feel about the way Porsche's sound? A 2.5L Boxster would be roughly the same price as a NA/NB Miata in comparable condition and, while it isn't a V8, I think it's one of the Great Engine Sounds of history.
Thanks for all of the responses, also where are the private messages? I didn't get a notification and can't seem to find a message center like on other forums, since Hungary Bill said they sent one.
Ha, I suppose if money were no issue then an all aluminum 302 with some kind of composite intake would be the way to go seeing as the iron block aluminum head and intake 302 isn't really any heavier than the all aluminum with composite intake LS. I looked into the Volvo B8444S as mentioned and it's stated as being 420 pounds complete without accessories so it's probably heavier with a flywheel, cluth, and accessories. From what I found the SHO V8 was only 30 pounds lighter also minus accessories. After more searching than I care to admit and from everyone here I think the LM4/L33 backed by a T-5 will be the way to go short of the aforementioned ultra expensive aluminum and composite 302. The T-5 should be ok with me as I'm not aggressive at all when it comes to that aspect of driving, around corners is another story though. 
I thought about the Boxster S, but I'm already high maintenance enough as it is so I don't need my car to be as well. Though it's probably one of the nicest sounding six cylinders out there. Besides I want something that's easy for me to work on and maintain, fourth gen F-body was bad enough thanks. 
In reply to rezisehtnys :
I researched this a good bit and carefully selecting the parts gets an aluminum head / intake etc 302 down to 410lbs, the T5 is supposed to weigh 78lbs. The Chevy LS options weigh about 30-45lbs more, not really enough to live on. So either one works great.
Additionally turbo twin cam 4 cylinder motors weigh as much if not more after all the accessories are added in. The plus they have is there are bolt on kits available so all the fabrication work isn't needed, which is a plus for those of us who don't weld and are generally not great at fabrication things.
What are you doing for EFI?
EEC-IV with a Moates Quarterhorse plugged in to a tablet or laptop gives AFR/timing customization, real-time emulation and data recording for pretty cheap, using a stock wiring harness out of any junkyard 302-based Ford.
PMs should go to the email you signed up with.
Tom1200 said:In reply to rezisehtnys :
I researched this a good bit and carefully selecting the parts gets an aluminum head / intake etc 302 down to 410lbs, the T5 is supposed to weigh 78lbs. The Chevy LS options weigh about 30-45lbs more, not really enough to live on. So either one works great.
Additionally turbo twin cam 4 cylinder motors weigh as much if not more after all the accessories are added in. The plus they have is there are bolt on kits available so all the fabrication work isn't needed, which is a plus for those of us who don't weld and are generally not great at fabrication things.
I guess the accessories for the 302 must weigh more then? Since on the post I found on the BMW forum with pictures of complete engines and accessories they were more or less equal with the transmission not taken into consideration. I'm impartial as far as brands go so GM or Ford I don't care in that regard. I do know it's a lot easier to find a 302 and Ford T-5, so there's that. The only GM T-5 I'm aware of that'd work are from the 3rd gen F-bodies, and manual F-bodies are impossible to find. I should know.
Also thanks, will check e-mail then.
The Rover really is light because it's small and all aluminum. It was originally 3.5l. I think it eventually got all the way up to 4.6 or so, but it's quite a compact engine. There's just less metal in it than in an LS engine, which will comfortably hit 7.0. I gave away my Rover so I can't weigh it, unfortunately, but I moved it around the shop a lot more easily than I've moved my LS engines.
I provided a full-up LS3 weight on the forum the last time this came up. I hate to be the "search noob" guy, but I'm a few hundred miles away from my notes so I can't pull it out.
I had an L33 with a cam and heads and etc. It was not life-changing. An almost-stock LS1 was a noticeably quicker engine, and when I went to an LS3 with the ASA cam I got better throttle response, more torque and something like 115 hp. Do the math on what it takes to make a truck L33 fit in a car plus all the usual online recommendations and it's not the super killer deal you might think.
If you just want V8 noises and you want a relatively easy swap, I'd be tempted to come up with an adapter to fit the Rover to the stock Miata trans. You'll probably have to do some bellhousing surgery, but it's nothing a welder couldn't fix.
Not quite what you need, but interesting...
Interesting, since the specs I had found said fully dressed with accessories they were 220-230 kg and dimensionally they weren't much smaller so the weight being close to the LS made sense. I guess maybe later engines were bigger somehow beside displacement? That or heavier components like the crank? I suppose will have to do further yet searching on that.
That's the one thing with the truck LS motors, I know to fit them into a F-body even you need the F-body oil pan and intake(or Corvette, GTO, Camaro) so I'd have suspected as much for going into a Miata.
I was curious as to if any of the V8 engine could somehow be mated to the Miata transmission, and I'd think the 6-speed might be fine as it's supposed to be stronger than the 5-speed right? Interesting find, and weren't the MGB V8 actually a Rover? Might be on to something there. Maybe I just need to find lots of money and just import a TVR Griffith 500, then it's job done from the factory.
The MGB V8 was a Rover was a Buick. That thing got around. It made something like 138 hp in the MG. The stock Miata 5 speed woudn't flinch at that. Heck, it's fine at about twice that level.
We don't have a lot of access to the Rover V8 here in the states, but what I do know is that it takes plenty of work to massage them to just 300 crank HP- and at that point for that amount of work, you'd likely be better off turbo-ing the stock 4-pot for less weight and semi-equal power.
Instead, why not the KL-ZE Mazda V6? I'm decently sure they bolt directly to the stock Miata trans, are Alloy-based, and makes some AWESOME sound.
The Rover version must've been beefed up over the Buick/Olds since everything I can find says it's like 60 pounds heavier. That and it's a different alloy, the Buick/Olds was really susceptible to corrosion because it wasn't like more modern castings from what I've found and was more like transmission housing aluminum. Here's the site I found that seems to specialize in the Rover 3.5-4.6 that gave the specs and weight on one fully dressed: http://www.v8engines.com/engine-4.htm
That was my thought, the Miata transmission would be fine with any of the V8 options I was looking into and especially since I'm not abusive. Just a matter of bolting them up and making it work. Still plenty of time to figure it all out, this is a long term making the Miata into my perfect car kind of thing. Since nothing else available USDM comes close. The people at TVR must be on the same wavelength as me though.
GIRTHQUAKE said:We don't have a lot of access to the Rover V8 here in the states, but what I do know is that it takes plenty of work to massage them to just 300 crank HP- and at that point for that amount of work, you'd likely be better off turbo-ing the stock 4-pot for less weight and semi-equal power.
Instead, why not the KL-ZE Mazda V6? I'm decently sure they bolt directly to the stock Miata trans, are Alloy-based, and makes some AWESOME sound.
I've seen the Rocketeer kits that use the Jaguar AJ V6, which is like the Ford Duratec which is like the Mazda KL right? For a V6 they sound fairly good, but it's still not something that stirs me deep down. If weight to power ratio was my ultimate concern I'd just do a Honda K20 swap or figure out how to use the Toyota 2ZZ-GE, but it's not.
GIRTHQUAKE said:Instead, why not the KL-ZE Mazda V6? I'm decently sure they bolt directly to the stock Miata trans, are Alloy-based, and makes some AWESOME sound.
Yeah, that is what my mx-3 sounds like, sweeeet, racecar sound. But yeah it IS a different kind of glorious than a V8, here is the SHO, what I want is this kind of sound, an big overcammed rough idling v8.. :)
I will say it intrigues me though as it'd keep the car all Mazda, and I like that. Sorta like that's how the car could've possibly come from the factory if they saw the need or market for a V6 Miata. That and the KL barely weighs more than the BP right? The KL V6 does sound fairly nice, much better than any I4 at least. Hmm... Plus it'd put the weight closer to center, even more so than the I4 perhaps... Ahhh, no I must stay persistent in my 'Merican obsession with the V8. Sigh, this is why this is something I've planned for the next 5 years or so, just want to enjoy the car as is for awhile first.
See, what nimble posted is what's up. I will say I think the SBF sounds better than the LS, and the SBC sounds better than the LS for that matter too. Just something about the vintage V8 sound that sounds better to me than the more modern engines.
rezisehtnys said:Keith Tanner said:Weight and power levels would be good information to collate. For example, you'll have a hard time keeping an LS engine down to the power level of a fully built Rover V8. Then you have to consider the transmission that will be required to survive that powerplant - an LS will rapidly disassemble a light T5 while the Rover won't, so you're going to have more weight in the trans and rear end with the LS car. But if you want 400 hp, that's what you're going to have to do. If you just want a bit more than the stock BP, well, turbocharge it
I'm pretty sure we went though this just recently on this forum, no? I've provided fully dressed LS numbers a couple of times.
If you're planning on putting this in an NB Miata, consider how much fabrication/engineering you want to do. The Ford and Chevy options are pretty well figured out. Toyota/Lexus has been done but you're still going to be doing a bunch of your own work. Rover has been done a few times but you're basically on your own for fabricating everything.
I'm more than happy with 200-300 horsepower and especially in a Miata, I want the V8 more for the soundtrack than anything. It's just everything that comes with a V8 stock is too heavy, too big, and/or too unsophisticated in terms of suspension. As far as weight goes it'd be nice to keep weight gain within 100 pounds over stock if at all possible. The GM and Ford options were front runners due to cost, parts availability, and easily finding/putting a manual behind them in addition to being well documented as you mentioned. It's just if for some reason the 1UZ or Rover were substantially lighter(and internet hearsay tells you they would be, but I don't quite buy it) I thought they'd be worth further investigation as I knew both have been put into Miatas before.
I don't want to dilute things since I asked for it not to be done, but from what I've found the aluminum LS fully dressed is around 500 pounds as is a fully dressed all iron small block Ford. So in theory a 302 with aluminum heads and an aluminum intake would be lighter. I was thinking a LM4 as far as the LS goes, so figured a third gen F-body T-5 would survive with me driving like an old lady most of the time.
This isn't accurate, the aluminum LS is far closer to 400 lbs than it is to 500. The all-iron 302 is approximately 450 fully dressed, the LS1 about 440
A Rover V8, flywheel, clutch, and Rover 5 speed will come in around 475. Thats give or take depending on what you do to the engine. You can go aluminum flywheel to save a few pounds. The aluminum LS3 stock flywheel, and clutch, some of the ancillaries, and the Tremec TR6060 came in right at 640 pounds. I'm hoping to get that down to right at 600 with the aluminum flywheel and lightweight clutch, plus removing unwanted stuff from the engine. Oil to water cooler is gone, thats a few pounds. A beefed up $10K Rover might get you 300 hp at the wheels. The mildly hopped up LS3 gets me over 400 at the wheels. The Tremec trans alone is around 150 pounds, but its a 6 speed, and it won't break. With the LS engine, I need a beefier driveshaft and went with a Ford 8.8 rear end. Those two items added 40 pounds or so. The exhaust required for the Rover's 300hp is a 2.25. I'm running a 3" with the LS3, so theres a few more pounds. Rad is also a little bigger and has about an extra 3 quarts of fluid. Counteracted that by going with a Braille battery which weighs about nothing. Was able to stash that inside the dash board and eliminate battery cables that went all the way to the trunk before. More weight savings. Most importantly, I bought a salvage Camaro for under $10K or about what the Rover 300 hp engine would cost to build. Sold off close to $5K in Camaro parts. So $5K for 400 plus hp in a reliable package with 6 speeds that weighs 600 pounds vs a $10K plus ticking time bomb that weighs 475 and makes 300. LS for the win.
In reply to nimblemotorsports :
Lawd that 3.4 sho sounded like an angelic lion.
For the 302, you can get a Microsquirt PNP from EFI Source for $475 based on a Fox Mustang harness.
That's what I am running in my 302 swapped XR4Ti.
Lightweight V8... Toyota's "V" engine series reported to be 130 kilos (that is about 30 kilos lighter then a 1UZ)- I'll be confirming mass in the next 2 months.
While not expensive... servicing it requires custom parts..... 
Keith Tanner said:The Rover really is light because it's small and all aluminum. It was originally 3.5l. I think it eventually got all the way up to 4.6 or so, but it's quite a compact engine.
TVR got them up to 5.0L IIRC. 4.6L was factory in Range Rovers and Discos.
They're compact and rather popular in the UK because they're easy to find over there. They don't make that good a performance engine out of the box as (IIRC) the heads and intake are quite restrictive. A lot of these problems have been resolved, but good performance parts for these things are considerably more expensive than for an LS or SBC/SBF, and that's before they get shipped across the pond.
I have one of these engines, I will be weighing it pretty soon, can't weigh too much. Will not fit into a Miata I'd be pretty sure of it, but they sound pretty good too,
even harder to find than a SHO v8.
The Buick/olds aluminum v8 was also turned into the formula one championship winning repco v8 in 66 and 67 with Brabham.
Although the low sound a a v8 is really cool I eventually tired of that as I have had many muscle cars. I then discovered the ear blending sound that an uncorked rotary can make. Lots of fun but it was just missing something. Then the wonderful sounds of the older Ferrari’s came to mind. This then lead me to the spine tingling hair raising noise that the K series Mazda motors make when uncorked and spinning over 7000 rpm. If you have not heard one I strongly recommend you take a listen. Not better than a V8 just different and in my opinion a really good alternative.
My thread exploring this this a while back.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/mazda-k-series-with-rwd/151175/page1/
Thanks for all the information. I came across the Toyota V engines, but I figured it'd be impossible to find one in the states and getting parts for the Rover seems bad enough even though we got the 4.0-4.6 over here in the Discovery. That and trying to figure out what manual you could attach to it, since they were only used in the large luxury Toyota cars? From the sounds of it for what I want power and weight wise for the money the Rover would be the way to go, that or maybe the 1UZ since the SBF would need expensive aluminum heads and the LS would need additional money getting parts for the truck LS to make it work as the LS2 or LS3 would simply be beyond overkill for me and all the LS1 are overpriced and ragged out.
I actually watched the series on Car Throttle where they did the AJ V6 in the Miata, looked fairly simple and straightforward with the Rocketeer kit and aside from cutting out part of the Miata bell housing there wasn't any cutting into the car which I liked. That and I like the idea of keeping the car all Mazda, even though that's somewhat of a stretch with the Jaguar version. Plus according to the Rocketeer guy with their intakes and headers it's actually lighter than the BP which after seeing the factory V6 intake I could believe it since allegedly the V6 is only 40 more pounds equally dressed stock. That and I listened on my phone versus crappy laptop and it did sound very nice, if not the best sounding six cylinder it's definitely the best sounding V6. If I were to not go V8 I definitely think I'd go with it over the K20 now that I think about it, at the very least I actually like how the Mazda V6 sounds. I'll have to read through your thread dean after making dinner.
This with decent headphones
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfS3GHT2bFA
I want one of these to take through the tunnel on the mass pike extension to Logan Airport. 
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