LM: ND2 basic mods for a triple use (street/autocross/track) car?

Well, it might have come to this and I may end up with another Miata after being Miata-less for almost four years...

CarMax willing I'll be looking at a low mileage ND2 in a couple of weeks, in the spec I should've bought instead of the ND LE I bought. Specifically, it's an ND2 club, but with standard wheels and tires and not the Brembo/BBS/Recaro package.

I remember reading a comment from Keith(?) somewhere that the Brembo package was really not that necessary and of course I know where to get some brake upgrades.

With an NA it would be paint-by-numbers as I've owned quite a few of them, but I've never actually modded an ND in a meaningful way. As it's an ND2, any thoughts of hairdryers bolted to the exhaust go out the window, so what I guess I'll be looking at are just some basic updates. Here's what I think I'd be looking at:

• Rollbar as stock hoops aren't SCCA legal (I think). How much cutting do I have to do to install one in and ND? My understanding is that it's really a choice between Harddog and Blackbird Fabworx, and the latter at least didn't publish any installation instructions on their website.
• Brakes - I guess fluid, probably lines and higher temp pads as a starting point before I start drooling over the FM catalog?
• Suspension or at least arbs? My usual mods on an NA would be the FM package with Konis, lowering springs and arbs, and given the low mileage of this car (< 25k) I'd be tempted to do the minimum before starting to throw a lot of parts at it.
• Probably seat, at least for auto-x and track. I've got a very nice almost unused Brida Stradia sitting in my parts pile that should be a new set of sliders away from being a bolt-in
• Something to plug that daft sound maker.
• Possibly a second set of wheels for the sticky tires.

Anything else I'm overlooking?[1]

[1] Other than large parts of the FM catalog I'm currently ignoring?

I'm relatively new to GRM, but from what I've read about ND's the transmission is a bit suspect. You should look into Flyin' Miata's transmission fluid cooler. Apparantly the fluid can get to 300f....and stay like that 

https://flyinmiata.com/en-ca/products/nd-fm-complete-transmission-cooler-kit

EDIT: missed your last line

J_D said:

I'm relatively new to GRM, but from what I've read about ND's the transmission is a bit suspect. You should look into Flyin' Miata's transmission fluid cooler. Apparantly the fluid can get to 300f....and stay like that 

https://flyinmiata.com/en-ca/products/nd-fm-complete-transmission-cooler-kit

EDIT: missed your last line

 

Another good variant is the GWR Transmission "Scoop" that is cheaper and less complex but also cools the transmission still.

Triple Threat ND?  Sounds familiar...

Learn from our experiences here ==> https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2019-nd-mx-5/

As for transmissions, the ND2 trans is NOT suspect like the ND1's were.  You'll be fine in stock form.  Our ND1 blew up the trans at about 10K like many people.  Our ND2 is now at 30k, with heavy track use, and still working as delivered.

You don't need a ton of work to make these cars fun, fast and safe.  Careful selection of products and sorting is the key.  There's a lot of stuff available that you do not need.

The trickiest part of the equation is deciding which rules you want to favor.  C Street autocross? Stock 5 SCCA TT?  NASA TT5?  STR autocross?  SCCA TT Tuner? 

There are sweet spots in there, depending on what the focus is.  And streetability, too.  The further you mod, the more you'll feel it on the street.

Tell us more about your intentions/goals.

Andy Hollis said:

Triple Threat ND?  Sounds familiar...

Learn from our experiences here ==> https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2019-nd-mx-5/

As for transmissions, the ND2 trans is NOT suspect like the ND1's were.  You'll be fine in stock form.  Our ND1 blew up the trans at about 10K like many people.  Our ND2 is now at 30k, with heavy track use, and still working as delivered.

You don't need a ton of work to make these cars fun, fast and safe.  Careful selection of products and sorting is the key.  There's a lot of stuff available that you do not need.

The trickiest part of the equation is deciding which rules you want to favor.  C Street autocross? Stock 5 SCCA TT?  NASA TT5?  STR autocross?  SCCA TT Tuner? 

There are sweet spots in there, depending on what the focus is.  And streetability, too.  The further you mod, the more you'll feel it on the street.

Tell us more about your intentions/goals.

Just a small tidbit, I've been searching the Miata forums (ND specifically) and there might have been a QC issue/bad batch of transmissions in the "newer" ones (2022-2023). Not sure what the ND3 will bring.

Andy Hollis said:

Triple Threat ND?  Sounds familiar...

Learn from our experiences here ==> https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2019-nd-mx-5/

As for transmissions, the ND2 trans is NOT suspect like the ND1's were.  You'll be fine in stock form.  Our ND1 blew up the trans at about 10K like many people.  Our ND2 is now at 30k, with heavy track use, and still working as delivered.

You don't need a ton of work to make these cars fun, fast and safe.  Careful selection of products and sorting is the key.  There's a lot of stuff available that you do not need.

The trickiest part of the equation is deciding which rules you want to favor.  C Street autocross? Stock 5 SCCA TT?  NASA TT5?  STR autocross?  SCCA TT Tuner? 

There are sweet spots in there, depending on what the focus is.  And streetability, too.  The further you mod, the more you'll feel it on the street.

Tell us more about your intentions/goals.

Thanks Andy, I'll have a look at the build thread later.

The goals in order of priority are:

• 3.25 Season daily-ish, airport car and local runabout for trips that I don't want to pull the 997 our for or that I have to use the LX470 for.
• Backup HPDE mobile while I work on and figure out what to do with my Elise. There might be a move into TT or W2W at some point, but that is likely going to be with a dedicated car at that point
• Occasional Autocross car when I feel like it - I'm not competitive in auto-x by any stretch of imagination and I really use it as a skills refresher and skills builder. Classifications don't matter much when you battle it out for the title of slowest driver at the event .
• I've got a plan for a cross-country road trip next year because I want to drive Laguna Seca again while I still can. The Elise isn't exactly road trip material for bombing across the country on I70, so it'll likely be a job for the Miata.

My ideal approach is to do as little as possible to the Miata while addressing to make it reliable and safe, maybe with a little added fun thrown in. And maybe make use of some of the good parts I already have from other project *cough* Bride Stradia *cough*

Edit: I noticed you installed the Blackbird Fabworks rollbar. I know Moti doesn't want people to publish the installation instructions, so my main question here is how hard you found it to install and how well does it work with the stock seatbelts? I've had his bars in several NA Miatas so it's likely that I'd end up with another one as I really like the build quality.

Technically a roll bar isn't required by SCCA for autocross or track nights. They allow "factory roll protection" for NC and ND Miatas specifically. But after my recent wreck, I would definitely get one, especially if you're replacing the seat too. I can also attest that Blackbird Fabworks/Aurora stuff is top notch. If you are tall whatsoever (I'm 6'0") and decide to keep stock seat, I recommend their seat lowering brackets. Even if you're less than 6', you may find the ergonomics a lot better when sitting lower. The friggin rearview mirror created a forward blind spot for me at stock height.

Also, if you get a RF, there is no SCCA-legal roll bar on the market that allows the top to operate. Moti has one available, but it permanently disables the roof from opening. 

Also also, regarding the seat, there are airbags built into the bolsters. So if it's primarily a street car, you may be better off leaving it stock. Mine popped on track and probably saved my passenger from further harm.

Trans - I would recommend replacing the fluid very often. My '21 only had 22k miles but it saw pretty heavy track use. I did fluid just before 20k miles and it was nasty opaque solid gray. I think the factory fill might be part of the trans reliability problem.

Brakes - Fluid and pads is all I did for HPDE. Motul 660 and Hawk DTC 60 worked great for me. You don't need the Brembo package, you don't need a big brake kit, unless you're doing much more serious track/racing stuff.

Suspension - Mine was stock, but I would recommend sway bars at the very least. That was my next plan before wrecking.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

J_D said:

I'm relatively new to GRM, but from what I've read about ND's the transmission is a bit suspect. You should look into Flyin' Miata's transmission fluid cooler. Apparantly the fluid can get to 300f....and stay like that 

https://flyinmiata.com/en-ca/products/nd-fm-complete-transmission-cooler-kit

EDIT: missed your last line

 

Another good variant is the GWR Transmission "Scoop" that is cheaper and less complex but also cools the transmission still.

Have they published any before/after data? It's simple and cheap, but I have my doubts about effectiveness. The fluid temps in the trans and diff under hard use are pretty extreme.

I can't speak to the Blackbird bar, but the Hard Dog doesn't affect seatbelt function. The two bars are similar enough in design that I wouldn't expect Moti's bar to be a problem at all. The stock bars are thin aluminum tubes under those covers, they're definitely not going to help you at all in a roll.

The stock Club suspension is pretty good - Mazda doesn't get Bilstein suspensions right very often, but they did well with this one. Sway bars are definitely popular, but I'd live with the suspension for a little while before throwing any other parts at it. 

I stand by my earlier assertions that the BBS/Brembo package isn't worth it. You can get better brakes and wheels for less money on the aftermarket. They won't have the same brand cachet though.

BoxheadTim said:

 

Edit: I noticed you installed the Blackbird Fabworks rollbar. I know Moti doesn't want people to publish the installation instructions, so my main question here is how hard you found it to install and how well does it work with the stock seatbelts? I've had his bars in several NA Miatas so it's likely that I'd end up with another one as I really like the build quality.

I have installed  Blackbird Fabworks bars in an NC as well as in a buddies ND. The ND install is the easier of the two but both require cutting plastic trim and that can take a good chunk of time if you want it to look good/great. Stock seatbelts functioned normally  in both cases  without any issue. 

Andy Hollis said:

Triple Threat ND?  Sounds familiar...

Learn from our experiences here ==> https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/2019-nd-mx-5/

As for transmissions, the ND2 trans is NOT suspect like the ND1's were.  You'll be fine in stock form.  Our ND1 blew up the trans at about 10K like many people.  Our ND2 is now at 30k, with heavy track use, and still working as delivered.

You don't need a ton of work to make these cars fun, fast and safe.  Careful selection of products and sorting is the key.  There's a lot of stuff available that you do not need.

The trickiest part of the equation is deciding which rules you want to favor.  C Street autocross? Stock 5 SCCA TT?  NASA TT5?  STR autocross?  SCCA TT Tuner? 

There are sweet spots in there, depending on what the focus is.  And streetability, too.  The further you mod, the more you'll feel it on the street.

Tell us more about your intentions/goals.

Curious if you're running any aftermarket/upgraded cooling for the engine/trans/diff on the Triple Threat car? 

Keith Tanner said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

J_D said:

I'm relatively new to GRM, but from what I've read about ND's the transmission is a bit suspect. You should look into Flyin' Miata's transmission fluid cooler. Apparantly the fluid can get to 300f....and stay like that 

https://flyinmiata.com/en-ca/products/nd-fm-complete-transmission-cooler-kit

EDIT: missed your last line

 

Another good variant is the GWR Transmission "Scoop" that is cheaper and less complex but also cools the transmission still.

Have they published any before/after data? It's simple and cheap, but I have my doubts about effectiveness. The fluid temps in the trans and diff under hard use are pretty extreme.

I can't speak to the Blackbird bar, but the Hard Dog doesn't affect seatbelt function. The two bars are similar enough in design that I wouldn't expect Moti's bar to be a problem at all. The stock bars are thin aluminum tubes under those covers, they're definitely not going to help you at all in a roll.

The stock Club suspension is pretty good - Mazda doesn't get Bilstein suspensions right very often, but they did well with this one. Sway bars are definitely popular, but I'd live with the suspension for a little while before throwing any other parts at it. 

I stand by my earlier assertions that the BBS/Brembo package isn't worth it. You can get better brakes and wheels for less money on the aftermarket. They won't have the same brand cachet though.

I didn't inquire more about it but its listed on their website as a 20 degree drop.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Ours is roughly a 100F fluid temperature decrease and backed up by datalogs and 7+ hour test sessions on a turbo car :) So I wouldn't call them alternatives. One addresses the problem, the other is basically a placebo. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

This is why I posted it. Data is key. 

CrashDummy said:

Andy Hollis said:

As for transmissions, the ND2 trans is NOT suspect like the ND1's were.  You'll be fine in stock form.  Our ND1 blew up the trans at about 10K like many people.  Our ND2 is now at 30k, with heavy track use, and still working as delivered.

Curious if you're running any aftermarket/upgraded cooling for the engine/trans/diff on the Triple Threat car? 

No.  In fact, it's still on factory fill for the trans and diff.  Hmmmm...maybe I should rectify that.

I have a 2019 Club with Brembos. I still have some mods to install (Blackbird rollbar, Xida Coilovers), but I have some things on, including the medium thickness Karcepts front bar as well as the rear bar. I do think you will need to at least do stiffer springs to combat the body roll. Here is a pic of me at a recent event going through a corner with a big sway bar. Definitely still has roll. The adjustability of the Karcepts bar is great, and cutting out the old bar makes install way easier. It's expensive though.

I still have to wait for my suspension to settle going through turns though. Even compared to my RS3, which only has a slightly bigger rear bar. Even compared to the stock RS3, the Miata rolls much more.

This is probably a given, but definitely do a performance alignment.

After that, I think cooling is the main thing to focus on next. My next purchase might be the Verus brake ducting. I'm looking at the FM cooling products too. Not sure what the priority might be there though.

For your uses stock brakes are probably fine with decent pads and fluid. I slightly disagree with some of the other posters re: Brembo/BBS package.  It's really nice. I started with stock brakes and switched to an aftermarket setup, and ended up going back to stock. Not all aftermarket setups are the same but the one I tried had significantly less pad volume and had a hard time with track use. After that I found the Brembo calipers and BBS wheels on marketplace, and thought they were both a big step up. The forged BBS wheels really sharpened up the handling compared to base wheels, and the Brembo calipers had great power and modulation and wuite a bit more pad volume and heat tolerance. The only caveat is that BBS and Brembo pretty much go together; a lot of other wheels have a hard time fitting over those calipers.

A lot of people want wider wheels than the BBS but unless you're chasing outright lap times and ready to accept a bunch of other compromises, I never thought of it as an upgrade. 

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

If you're talking about our Little Big Brake kit or a knockoff of it, they have a little less pad volume than stock. It's a good autox/street option because it knocks off considerable unsprung weight and improves pedal feel over the base brake setup. If you're looking to work the brakes hard on track, something else would be worthwhile. And you would also probably want a wheel wider than 7" for track work as well to support the wider tires you likely also want.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

What year is the ND2 you are looking at? IIRC, there are 5 versions of the ND transmission. The early 2019 ND2's shipped with V4, before being changed to V5 a few weeks into production. I can look up the thread on miata.net with the VIN#'s for the 2019's when the changeover happened if you need

In reply to J_D :

It's a 2020.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Roger that Keith. One of the bigger Wilwood-based kits would have been better suited for track duty, and the LBBK probably would have been better suited for street and autocross. I didn't have experience with the larger FM kit, but mainly wanted to say that the Brembo calipers are really good IMO because I have experience with those. Probably not worth the cost upcharge for the option package from the factory, but definitely worth snagging on the secondary market. And I love the BBS wheels, but I was perfectly happy with 7" width and 205 section tires. With good tires there was plenty of grip on the track, while preserving the playful and balanced nature of the car. I always prefer a little narrower tire on a Miata over trying to dial out tramlining and heavy steering with street driving. 

maschinenbau said:

Technically a roll bar isn't required by SCCA for autocross or track nights. They allow "factory roll protection" for NC and ND Miatas specifically. But after my recent wreck, I would definitely get one, especially if you're replacing the seat too. I can also attest that Blackbird Fabworks/Aurora stuff is top notch. If you are tall whatsoever (I'm 6'0") and decide to keep stock seat, I recommend their seat lowering brackets. Even if you're less than 6', you may find the ergonomics a lot better when sitting lower. The friggin rearview mirror created a forward blind spot for me at stock height.

I've owned an ND before and I seem to remember that I was at a comfortable height, but lower is definitely something to consider.

Also, if you get a RF, there is no SCCA-legal roll bar on the market that allows the top to operate. Moti has one available, but it permanently disables the roof from opening. 

It's a soft top - I'm aware of the "rollbar turning the RF into a coupe" issue, and I like convertibles. People could argue I've got too many of those already .

Also also, regarding the seat, there are airbags built into the bolsters. So if it's primarily a street car, you may be better off leaving it stock. Mine popped on track and probably saved my passenger from further harm.

That's a good point. My plan would be similar to what I did with my S2k, IE the posh seat goes in for auto-x and track use, and then the stock one goes back in for regular use.

Trans - I would recommend replacing the fluid very often. My '21 only had 22k miles but it saw pretty heavy track use. I did fluid just before 20k miles and it was nasty opaque solid gray. I think the factory fill might be part of the trans reliability problem.

Someone (Keith?) mentioned that the stock fill of the transmission has a moly additive in it, which might be the explanation for the colour.

Brakes - Fluid and pads is all I did for HPDE. Motul 660 and Hawk DTC 60 worked great for me. You don't need the Brembo package,

And given that's it's a rainy day here, I'm watching way too many FM videos on YouTube.

That was not me mentioning anything about a moly additive, but I'm gonna go looking in the Mazda docs now!

In reply to Keith Tanner :

*cough* second post in this thread: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/if-you-have-an-nd-mx-5-change-your-gearbox-oil/132592/page1/

Damn! Pulled out nearly 7 year old receipts