Looking to get into BMWs (maybekinda)

So I'm tired of working on my old car constantly.   I've decided the classic car life isn't for me.   Ive left my classic bug better than I got it, and now I'm selling it.  (I want A/C!)

I wanted something quicker, with a manual.   

Awd would be nice because it snows where I live. But im Used to rear wheel drive even in deep snow. I was looking at the mustang ecoboost because they are in my price range and have everything I thought I wanted 

However, someone point out that BMWs can be awd and manual....and fast for relatively low prices.

So I'm asking all you "bimmerphiles" out there.  What is your secrets?  Which BMWs are good and bad?  What do the numbers mean?

What's the difference between a BMW 325i and a 550i?  

Exactly how bad is the maintenance if your a do it yourself guy?

Basically looking for a break down of BMWs under 20k in the used market. 

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Short version:

The model numbers mean virtually nothing. There was a time when you had a few body styles (the first number) and a few engine displacements (the second two) that were pretty clear and simple. These days BMW is seemingly pulling numbers and letters out of a hat and stringing them together. Generally bigger numbers mean more/bigger. I recommend looking for smaller numbers with as few letters attached as possible (caveats: i is always there as a suffix in some form, and M is good). Learn the body codes (E/F numbers) to distinguish models.

Avoid AWD. It's heavy, complex, and makes the handling worse. Four snow tires is perfectly adequate.

Maintenance on the right car - naturally aspirated inline engine, manual, not loaded with useless options - isn't bad. Parts are easy to get but not cheap (not awful either, in most cases). Usual maintenance is generally easy. Some jobs on more recent cars are tricky because of packaging.

See what's on the market, figure out what you like the look of, and start narrowing things down.

I'm a long-time BMW dork. My dad's driven them since the '70s. I've owned dozens. I learned HPDE/racing with them. I was the president and chief instructor of the local BMW Club chapter for a few years. Still active with BMW CCA today.

So, it hurts me to say this ... but my advice is to RUN AWAY from any BMW newer than the E46 3-series. Build quality completely tanked starting in the mid-2000's.

Absolutely avoid any "modern" version (especially AWD, turbo, direct injection models) without a full factory warranty. It's absolutely staggering how unreliable they get after the first 50-60k miles. In many cases, the expensive problems start cropping up at about 25-35k miles. At least you'll get some minimal help from BMW under warranty: it's like pulling teeth, but you can usually get BMW to do the right thing. Once the warranty is over, it's ready for the crusher.

Consider any modern BMW as basically a disposable car with an operational life of about 5 years (+/- 1 year) from new. 

LanEvo said:

So, it hurts me to say this ... but my advice is to RUN AWAY from any BMW newer than the E46 3-series. Build quality completely tanked starting in the mid-2000's.

Speaking as an ex-E46 owner, this.

E46s are the 3-series made from about 1999 to about 2006.  At the time, the 3-series was the smallest of 3 chassis (3-, 5-, and 7-) BMW made and could be had with several engine options, all inline 6s in the US.

The sweet spot is the 2003-2005 E46, which got a facelift, a power bump, and some improvements to the power steering system to give better feel.

For $20k, you can buy the nicest one in the world short of an M3 and have plenty of money left over to do any deferred maintenance and some modifications.

I suggest a 330i ZHP like this one for $8k and put another $6k into making it perfect.  At 113,000 miles that car has another 100,000 miles in it easily, especially with significant money spent on a refresh.  Or spend the extra money on a cared-for garage queen like this one and not worry about maintenance.

This car will be torquey, fun to drive, handle (and ride) very very well as a street car, and be rewarding to drive and own.

I'm just going to pretend I don't hear any of this when I start looking for a V10 M5.  I'm also going to allocate 50% of available funds for the car, and the other 50% for ... keeping it running.

My 128i is one of my favorite cars I've owned, and I also have a Boxster S and Cooper S at the moment.  I my opinion, one of the last old school BMWs.  At 113k miles, it's been pretty reliable as well.  I am going to drive until pieces start randomly falling off.  

Join your local BMWCCA forum or FB Group and poke around.  The first model number is used to indicate the size of the car (3,5,7) and the last two numbers were the engine displacement.  325i = 3 series (small car) w/a 2.5L enging.  528i = 5 series (bigger) w/2.8L engine.  At some point the last 2 #s stopped representing the displacement...higher numbers now just = more power.  E60 550i is the mid-size car w/the big V8.  They were available with a manual transmission as well.  

BMW nerds tend to refer to cars by their chassis code.  Earlier cars started earlier cars started with "E" (E9,E21,E30,E36,E46) then eventually graduated to F & G.  I've never owned a modern BMW, but I've read plenty about engineering issues.  For example, for certain M cars rod bearings are pretty much viewed as a "maintenance" item (according to the internet).  tough to say how much of this is exaggerated or from neglect...but definitely do your homework and get a PPI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:BMW_model_codes

I've had two BMWs and worked on several 2002s. The only models I'd bother with are 3 series: E30, E36 and E46. Any of those with a '3' as the first model number on the trunk lid is worth a look.

E30s are, IMO, darn near the perfect car. Built like a rock, parts are cheap and upgraded suspension will turn them into an easy to drive on the edge car. 325i or 325is is the best. 325 and 325e are the low rev economy models. 318 is a four cylinder which is okay but the 2.5 six is way more fun.

E36s are the natural evolution of the E30. A little better handling, more power but the eventual quality slide of the brand overall begins here with the interior. Door trim panels fall apart and window regulators fail. Glovebox doors fall off. The cooling system is a wear item. Again, I wouldn't bother with the four cylinder versions because the sixes are so good. You can get the M3 version for reasonable money still. 200,000 mile cars no problem, even more if decently maintained.

E46s are moving toward getting portly but are still nice cars. Window regulators last months, not years. Rear subframe/floorpan cracking can be a problem you really want to be aware of. As noted earlier, the last of the decent BMWs for people without a trust fund.

5 series and above are going to be way more trouble because they get all the 'cutting edge' technology first and it's all those features that tend to break first...and are VERY expensive to fix like adaptive headlamps, automatic climate control, etc.

Still, they aren't as hateful to own as Mercedes or Jaguars.

For generations, the BMW 3 Series has been a great platform for enthusiasts to modify their cars for autocross, track days and street performance.  I've owned four of them.  My first sporty car was an E30 325is from the late 80's.  I've also had an E36 M3 from the mid-90s, which another fantastic platform for driving events.  Those cars are *old* now, and each generation that replaced them has more modern tech and amenities but has also grown larger and heavier.  The E36 was followed by the E46 (early 2000s) mentioned above.  

The generation of small cars that followed the E46 3 Series are the E90 3 Series and E82 1 Series.  These sedans and coupes are fully depreciated, easy to find, and the 135/335 models came with turbocharged inline six engines that respond well to ECU tuning.  They are more fragile and more expensive to maintain than earlier generations, but can easily be made lots faster than the older normally aspirated cars.

Honestly though, the ecoboost Mustang is also a fine option and will probably cost you less over time for a much newer car than the recommendations in this thread 
The only strike against it is that the rear seats can't fit adults (no headroom) which even the BMW 1 Series/3 Series coupes do just fine.

ddavidv said:

Window regulators last months, not years. Rear subframe/floorpan cracking can be a problem you really want to be aware of. As noted earlier, the last of the decent BMWs for people without a trust fund.

I owned my 2003 325i as a daily for 11 years.  I put all the windows up and down all the time because I prefer that to AC.  In 11 years I put 2 - count em, 2 -  window regulators in it.  It's a $60 part and takes maybe 45 minutes to do yourself. 

I also autocrossed the car on a regular basis for 5 or 6 seasons.  Never on R-comps, but on 3-season UHP tires.  I had no issue with subframe mount cracking when I sold the car at 14 years old and 130,000 enthusiastic miles.  I agree, I wouldn't buy one without getting it looked at, but IMHO this issue is not as common as the internet makes it out to be.

In reply to racerdave600 :

The normally-aspirated/port-injected engines from that era are definitely much more reliable than the twin-turbo/direct-injected models.

I'd stick with the "nothing newer than an E46" recommendation as well, unless you're willing to do (or pay for) lots of stupid things all the time. Like valve covers and oil pans that leak at 30k miles, water pumps that fail at 50k miles, etc. 

The bad thing about that, the newest E46 is 14 years old. And a mint E46 M3, for example, still pulls a premium because they are fantastic driving cars with a sweet engine.

racerdave600 said:

My 128i is one of my favorite cars I've owned, and I also have a Boxster S and Cooper S at the moment.  I my opinion, one of the last old school BMWs.  At 113k miles, it's been pretty reliable as well.  I am going to drive until pieces start randomly falling off.  

If I knew then, what I know now. I would have searched out a 128i instead of the 135i DCT car I ended up with. 

I didn't realize until after I had the 135, just how how power you could get with the intake manifold, exhaust, and tune on the 128.

In reply to z31maniac :

...which is about 1/4 the power gain you could get with an intake, exhaust and tune on your 135i, lol.  Tell us about your buyer's remorse--has the 135i been a nightmare?

z31maniac said:

The bad thing about that, the newest E46 is 14 years old. And a mint E46 M3, for example, still pulls a premium because they are fantastic driving cars with a sweet engine.

You can still get a decent driver E46 M3 coupe for $12-15K.  It'll have an SMG that you'll need to convert, rod bearings to change, VANOS to service, and rear subframe mounts to reinforce -- all large jobs, but DIYable.

I've been on the fence on getting an e46 since they first came out, I'd love to have one for DD use and the occasional rallycross.  I just don't know if I'd ever trust one on a 130 mile daily commute.   But if I get a hair up my ass, I'll probably jump on a 5 speed touring or do the manual swap myself. 

LOL

You're tired of wrenching on cars and you want to buy a BMW?  My E30, E36 and R53 cured me of every buying another BMW.  And that was buying them new or close to new.

You might want to consider an Infiniti G35 / G37 or Nissan 350/370, Mustang, Camaro, Corvette, Cadillac CTSV.  All have manual trans options.

nderwater said:

In reply to z31maniac :

...which is about 1/4 the power gain you could get with an intake, exhaust and tune on your 135i, lol.  Tell us about your buyer's remorse--has the 135i been a nightmare?

Yeah, the single turbo N55 tops out around 350whp on the stock turbo, IIRC. I left it stock.

Oh yes, such a nightmare I traded it in last June. I bought it with 26k miles in January '18, traded it in with 32k miles in June '19. In that time, it needed an OFHG, valve cover gasket, new battery and coded, the DCT computer had to be reprogrammed multiple times to get it to act correctly and it was still finicky in traffic. The oil pan on the engine and the transmission had both started to weep ever so slightly.

And since the OFHG had been leaking, I was planning on preemptively changing the belt tensioner and belt. On the N55s if the belt tensioner fails, it typically sucks the belt through the front main seal and can end up in rod and/or crank bearings killing the engine. 

Then it started to sound like rod knock in the upper-rpm range, confirmed with my mechanic, so I ditched it. 

Needless to say, it's unlikely I'll ever buy a modern turbo BMW again. 

Thread summary:  Go with the Mustang, lol

Isn't the new (2016+) V6/Turbo4 Camaro supposed to be pretty good, too?  I've not driven one but they post good numbers at driving events.

In reply to racerdave600 :

I concur. Mine is at 134k and hasn't needed much. Got a little valve cover gasket leak that I'm planning to address soon, but other than that it just goes. Trouble is there aren't many around, and finding one with a manual is tricky.

What does the hive say about late-model BMWs?  Looks like the 2014+ M235i and 435i start from the high teens.  Are they any less maintenance-prone than the early turbo inline sixes?

I have an 2014 X3 with the N55.  Bought at 90k km now has 145k.  No issues except a new battery which was 6 years old so normal, super $$ though because of stop start and alt. recharging requires a giant battery.

No engine issues, lots of power, pretty good fuel economy.

I also have a M240i with B58, no issues at all, still under warranty. It's manual with no lux options.  We'll see...

My E90 wagon with the N52 had quite a few issues and generally fit the expensive German crap stereotype. 

nderwater said:

Thread summary:  Go with the Mustang, lol

Isn't the new (2016+) V6/Turbo4 Camaro supposed to be pretty good, too?  I've not driven one but they post good numbers at driving events.

That would be my suggestion, but I wasn't going to say it, since I always complain about GRM threads where people ask "A or B" and then there are 47 suggestions that have nothing to do with the original question.

undrwater:  My parents have a 2019 430 and 2018 X5.  So far, both are non-issues reliability-wise.  His previous 2015 3 series was also fairly good.  It appears some of the newer BMW stuff is improved.  I drove a M235 and was impressed.  It is a nice car.  

I was sorta shopping for a E46 for my next car but every time I do research on BMWs I find a new dealbreaker. SULEV E46s supposedly have $6K replacement cost for the fuel pump?  I live in CA, after 2003 or so they are all SULEV here I think.