Does the world need yet another motorsports class? After our first encounter with Club Spec Mustang at the SCCA Solo Nats, we believe the answer is yes.
Club Spec Mustang follows a new vision for the SCCA: Create a rule set that allows one car to participate in multiple club offerings, meaning autocross, Time Trials, RoadRally and RallyCross.
Club …
When I was looking at retiring my XB Miata from autocross duties, I looked at these Mustangs for either F/Street (didn't seem terribly competitive) or CAM-C (seemed like it required too much modification and investment) and so passed on them, and eventually got an E/Street MR2 Spyder. Then, not long after, SCCA announced this class and I've heard from the local guy running that they're super competitive at a local level due to a pretty squishy PAX. So frustrating.
So far the CSM Mustangs at Solo Nats seem to be about 8% off the F Street times which is actually really impressive considering they're at a huge tire, power, rear suspension and development disadvantage. But the class has solid numbers (19 cars for a class that was announced less than a year ago, with participation by some top drivers), and has all the marks of having some real momentum. Weirdly even more than the NC Miata class, which I expected to be the stronger of these two offerings.
TT Nats registration is also showing the same trend, with seven Mustangs currently entered for the October championship event compared to just one Miata at the moment. It will be interesting to see how they fare over four days of track competition.
NickD said:Then, not long after, SCCA announced this class and I've heard from the local guy running that they're super competitive at a local level due to a pretty squishy PAX. So frustrating.
I'm sure the PAX will firm up soon. I really like the idea of these spec classes. I'm just not a huge fan of the chassis choices. I understand they were chosen to be accessible.
I wonder what is next? They don't have a turbo 4 yet. Spec WRX? I have to imagine a spec corvette would be popular with how many of them I see at events. (Not necessarily the same as the w2w class, but why not?)
I’ve wondered about a Spec Vette class, too, but which Vette would you choose?
It's a good spec, and I seriously considered building my car to it. But I had to be honest with myself that my days as any kind of serious motorsports competitor are over, so I ended up doing more of a street build.
"Club Spec Mustangs are not muscle cars. Sure, they’ve got a live axle and a V8, but they’re fairly heavy, fairly soft, fairly slow cars, so drive them like a big Miata: Focus on smooth inputs, and try to brake as little as possible. This isn’t a point-and-shoot car."
They're not a thing, then describe the thing to a "T"?
So when this class was announced I made a fuss about the usual SCCA Spec class issue; starts out low and then gets stupidly expensive for the level of performance.
Looking at Stranos' website it appears that you'll spend 6K beyond the price of the car if you build it to the limit.
$16,000 is pretty reasonable for something that will be competitive and that you can also still drive to work.
I'm watching this class and the NC Miata spec class with interest. Initial purchase price in on the mustangs seems to be lower around here, with some prices down in the $5-6,000 range. I'm not seeing any NC2 Miatas with clean titles and six speed transmissions for that.
I'm considering selling my 99 hard s Miata.
A difference of a couple thousand dollars for a completed build between the two classes could be a factor in what I choose. First thing is how well populated the class is locally, that's going to take time to see what happens.
Have they really promoted the csm into rallycross?
David S. Wallens said:I’ve wondered about a Spec Vette class, too, but which Vette would you choose?
I think the NASA spec C5 is actually a pretty good platform. Mild motors, big brakes, good but not $$$ suspension, cooling upgrades. It would actually be fairly easy to balance LS1 C5s and C6s using restrictor plates/weight penalties.
So, anyway, I think if you're going to do Spec Vette it needs to be a little more heavily prepared because they're already more capable than a lot of their components in stock form. Especially if it's going to be a track car as well, they need better brakes and cooling.
David S. Wallens said:I’ve wondered about a Spec Vette class, too, but which Vette would you choose?
Based on their criteria it should be based on a c5 or c6 base model and try and accommodate the c5z. I think it'd be a long shot to have a c6z being anything but a requirement if built around and the c7 is probably too expensive for this sort of thing. Though basing it off a c7 z51 with a dry sump wouldn't be a bad thing....
You could probably make c5, c5z, c6 base work with slightly different engine allowances to get them all to ls3 base power. TBH some of the open classes would be a lot better if SCCA was open to dyno sheets and power/weight classing. min weight 3180 to match the cams class and spec hp of whatever a stock ls3 dynos at would be great. Add in allowance for cooling. Spec something like the spec corvette suspension. You could align it to Max 2 TT rules since it would be relatively close to where these would end up.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:I'm watching this class and the NC Miata spec class with interest. Initial purchase price in on the mustangs seems to be lower around here, with some prices down in the $5-6,000 range. I'm not seeing any NC2 Miatas with clean titles and six speed transmissions for that.
I'm considering selling my 99 hard s Miata.
A difference of a couple thousand dollars for a completed build between the two classes could be a factor in what I choose. First thing is how well populated the class is locally, that's going to take time to see what happens.
Yeah it's a tough call. I really felt like the CSX would be the hotter of the classes, but for '24 at least I was wrong. it just seems like it's way easier to find the right MX5 in decent shape than it is to find the right Mustang that's not all grodered out and needs a bunch of work just to get it into good enough shape to start the project.
Both cars get kind of outclassed or outprepped if you slap on traditional 200tw tires and bump yourself somewhere. In TT the Mustang will be competing with Coyote cars, E46 M3s and '22+ twins. The NC has to contend with NDs in the same class, so right there it's behind the curve a bit.
I dunno, though. I think once you;re done the NC is probably a better overall car to drive around every day if you wanted to. Figure out a quick plan to swap in a race seat for the weekends and it's still a realy nice daily driver that's easy on consumables.
camopaint0707 said:Have they really promoted the csm into rallycross?
No. The rallycross board is working on a different spec class. The latest fast track referenced mini trucks (Ranger, S10, etc). I was sort of hoping for 2000-2010 era 2.5 NA Subarus or the 2010ish Honda Civic Si but for now I am watching and waiting with everyone else.
In reply to ojannen :
I was gonna say....tom said rallycross in the original post and that just didn't sound right lol.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Around here, to get a good starting point for a mustang it's $13-15k. The $10k cars are all at 200k miles, rough, rusty and ragged out. It would cost you $$ to get it to a decent starting point, then spending $6k on parts. Maybe the SCCA has become the wine and cheese racers they were accused of because $20k+ for a toy car doesn't seem inexpensive. But then again true spec classes never made sense to me. MAybe it's my desire to build my own thing to have fun and see how it competes against others who built their thing and we all go have fun chasing each other around tracks. If I was building an NC or a Mustang, it wouldn't follow the spec rules for sure.
Small clarification: According to the SCCA’s Club Spec page, Club Spec cars can go across all venues, although sounds like some details are still being worked out.
Buy one car, do all the things – that’s what Club Spec’s all about. A Club Spec car is fun, easy to own, and (importantly) easy to purchase. Topping it off, performance packages for Club Spec cars are affordable, attractive, and improve the ownership experience. Whether you’re participating in SCCA Autocross, Time Trials, RoadRally or RallyCross (with more in the works), or you’re taking a Sunday drive, Club Spec is the answer. Interest piqued? Your adventure begins by clicking below.
bobzilla said:In reply to Tom1200 :
Around here, to get a good starting point for a mustang it's $13-15k. The $10k cars are all at 200k miles, rough, rusty and ragged out. It would cost you $$ to get it to a decent starting point, then spending $6k on parts. Maybe the SCCA has become the wine and cheese racers they were accused of because $20k+ for a toy car doesn't seem inexpensive. But then again true spec classes never made sense to me. MAybe it's my desire to build my own thing to have fun and see how it competes against others who built their thing and we all go have fun chasing each other around tracks. If I was building an NC or a Mustang, it wouldn't follow the spec rules for sure.
$20k isn't a lot for a prepped car these days. Cheaper is going to require a lot of fabrication skill on the part of the owner or a lot of luck in finding the perfect salvage title car. Not that it can't be done, but the assumption is that you're buying a widely available car that is currently in reasonable condition, not a unicorn. Something like a $2k challenge class would be more suitable for those sorts of goals where its at least as much about the engineering as it is the racing. Spec classes appeal to those who largely want to take the engineering side out of the equation.
In reply to bobzilla :
Agreed not cheap in my book either but the key here is you could daily drive it.
If I sold off my other track stuff it would easily raise the money for one of these.
In reply to bobzilla :
$20k was about what I had wrapped up in an Xtreme Street B Miata and I bought that before Miata prices hit the roof. It was fast but not terribly competitive, eligibility in other disciplines of racing was a gray area, and it was miserable to drive on the street.
JG Pasterjak said:Yeah it's a tough call. I really felt like the CSX would be the hotter of the classes, but for '24 at least I was wrong. it just seems like it's way easier to find the right MX5 in decent shape than it is to find the right Mustang that's not all grodered out and needs a bunch of work just to get it into good enough shape to start the project.
After discovering these spec classes this morning, I took to the dark realm of FB Marketplace, CL, etc, and I think I've figured out why the Mustang class is bigger than the NC class:
Looking locally, I cannot find a single NC2 or NC3 with a 6MT and a soft top. There are a boatload of NC1's with a 5MT or 6MT, but NC2's/NC3's are scarce, even harder to find in a 6MT and almost unicorn status to find in a soft top and a manual. Most of them came with 6AT's (that I don't believe most track folks are interested in), and seemingly most of the NC2/3's with a manual were Grand Touring spec cars that were ordered with the PRHT- running a PRHT means a substantial amount of difficulty in running a roll bar that actually goes over your head. I know the class mentioned being able to do a drivetrain swap, but I think that's probably a tough sell to most people: buy an NC1 and engine/transmission swap it before you can even think about competing.
I understand why the SCCA made that decision (the 2009+ forged internal motors hold up better to abuse), and having everyone use the same gearbox eliminates advantages one way or another, but it's a tough car to find when most of the NC's sold in the US were NC1's: https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/mazda-mx-5-miata-sales-figures/
By comparison, local to me there are a plethora of manual 2005-2009 Mustang GT's available for reasonable prices.
I know this is anecdotal evidence, but if most regions are like mine, the number of 2009+ NC's with a 6MT and soft top are low. If only I hadn't sold my 2009 NC2 soft top Touring 6MT years ago...
JG Pasterjak said:Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:I'm watching this class and the NC Miata spec class with interest. Initial purchase price in on the mustangs seems to be lower around here, with some prices down in the $5-6,000 range. I'm not seeing any NC2 Miatas with clean titles and six speed transmissions for that.
I'm considering selling my 99 hard s Miata.
A difference of a couple thousand dollars for a completed build between the two classes could be a factor in what I choose. First thing is how well populated the class is locally, that's going to take time to see what happens.
Yeah it's a tough call. I really felt like the CSX would be the hotter of the classes, but for '24 at least I was wrong. it just seems like it's way easier to find the right MX5 in decent shape than it is to find the right Mustang that's not all grodered out and needs a bunch of work just to get it into good enough shape to start the project.
Both cars get kind of outclassed or outprepped if you slap on traditional 200tw tires and bump yourself somewhere. In TT the Mustang will be competing with Coyote cars, E46 M3s and '22+ twins. The NC has to contend with NDs in the same class, so right there it's behind the curve a bit.
I dunno, though. I think once you;re done the NC is probably a better overall car to drive around every day if you wanted to. Figure out a quick plan to swap in a race seat for the weekends and it's still a realy nice daily driver that's easy on consumables.
Street manners isn't a factor, it's going to be trailered to events.
NickD said:In reply to bobzilla :
$20k was about what I had wrapped up in an Xtreme Street B Miata and I bought that before Miata prices hit the roof. It was fast but not terribly competitive, eligibility in other disciplines of racing was a gray area, and it was miserable to drive on the street.
Yeah, for $20k, that covers both years of One Lap entry costs, tires for 3.5 seasons, brakes, fuel, maintenance, upgrades for my DD (retired), Time Attack, auto-x, TT car. That car still gets driven to and from events, gets driven to work at least weekly etc. NExt years tires and brakes will probably put me at that $20k mark after 4 seasons.
In reply to JG Pasterjak :
Curious as to why these are slower than Street class cars, now that Street no longer includes R-comps? Is it really all down to expensive dampers?
In reply to Duke :
The street cars have way more and stickier tire, shocks, suspension, power, and development behind them. F-street is where modern Camaros run.
You'll need to log in to post.
