Low cost track suspension advice

Building a 2001 audi tt quattro 225 

street/track car.

lots of weight reduction.

500-1500$ coilover budget

The little info on track springrates for these that ive found is front 400-800lb rear 600-1000lb

also the rears need really short springs, like 3-4".

so my problem is finding cheap enough dampers that will work with those rates. I dont trust taiwan coilovers like bc. But seika might be my only option because theyll build your set to spec and match valving to your springrates for around 1200$

i waslooking at st xa coils, but id have to swap the springs out.

bilsteins would be underdamped i think.

kw too expensive.   Koni yellows i think would be underdamped also..

any advice on my options?

You could possibly buy some used bilstein or koni shocks and have them revalved to match your spring rates needed?

It's going to be tough in that budget to get something not imported from a company in the far east so may need to make some tweaks to your planned rates to enable you to drop in Koni Yellows for the time being?

I dont know anything about Audi's so mainly just here to bump to the top.

$1500 as the high end? 

You can likely get a set of custom FEAL 441s for a few hundred more. That will be much better than an OTS setup.

Bilstein rebuilt and custom valved a set of HD's for me for ~$100 each.  Not the pinnacle of performance but with a ground control sleeve kit and camber plates setup for caster, my FSP rabbit is more capable than it's driver.

The first question is does the car need to be competitive in any sort of class or is it strictly a track day car?

If it's in a class you can buy any old threaded sleeve, than scour the internet for the spring rates and length you need. The info is out there you just need to spend the hours doing the research.  After that just buy some revalved Bilstein or other brand. This would fit your budget.

If this is just a track day car my advice is find some lowering springs, quality dampers and upgraded sway bars and call it a day.

I will also add that if this is for a particular class, dependent on the competition locally, that a budget set up is unlikely to be competitive. Note I raced my Datsun with a budget set up for years but I wasn't expecting it to be a front runner.

Street/Track car with 800 to 1000 spring rates?  I doubt those spring rates would allow the car to be safe on the street.

Apples to different apples, I had 450Lb springs on a ground control sleves/Koni's on my 01 Focus ZX3.  It was not drivable on the street.  Potholes and road imperfections would literally launch the car into the air.  There just isnt enough give in the suspension to be street driven.

cfvwtuner said:

Street/Track car with 800 to 1000 spring rates?  I doubt those spring rates would allow the car to be safe on the street.

Apples to different apples, I had 450Lb springs on a ground control sleves/Koni's on my 01 Focus ZX3.  It was not drivable on the street.  Potholes and road imperfections would literally launch the car into the air.  There just isnt enough give in the suspension to be street driven.

 

You can't compare spring rates between cars with no context. The motion ratio determines the effect wheel rate of the spring. 

I ran 550/750 on one of my E30s, and because of the motion ratio, the rear rates work out to be softer than the fronts. 

Wow thanks for all the input.

On springrates:  yes it is a motion ratio issue. From what others have said the rear has a huge ratio discrepancy. So 1000lb springs end up very soft.  Bilstein pss has 600lb rear springs ots. And lots of coilovers come with 350-450 lb springs in the front ots. the car will not be raced, but will be trackday. Its my second track car project.  What i learned from the last one was to skip all the basic soft stuff because once the car gets some grip in it, itll demand higher rates anyways.  Also im going off other audi tt track car builders advice(which is scarce).

$1500 is pushing it actually.  And i already spoke to bilstein, but they no longer do revalving. They referred another shop that charges like 250 per corner.  

are taiwan dampers like ceika or bc? That bad? ceika builds theirs to match your springrates, and bc are rebuildable.  I have seen track reviews where bc overhead sfter a few laps though. That is NOT what i want.

i could try to run a medium springrate.  Maybe 500f 700r?

anyone think there a cheaper chock brand that would handle that at least somewhat ok?

In reply to Tadope :

Did your previous softly sprung car suck to drive?

I'm in the soft springs & bigger sways bars camp but I do realize that the softer sprung car doesn't have that instant feedback. A lot of drivers don't like or cope with that set up well. 

I also wouldn't get hung up on having coilovers; if you can get lowering springs in the rates you need than just go with that. Just for fun I looked and Rockauto had a Bilstein kit for your car for $1500.

Buy the best bits your budget will allow and go have fun.

There was a change in Bilsteins shocks for a bunch of cars in the last year or so, the result of which is that the newer shocks can't be rebuilt. So just watch that a little closely. Not sure if it affects the shocks available for the TT or not. 

Tom1200 said:

In reply to Tadope :

Did your previous softly sprung car suck to drive?

I'm in the soft springs & bigger sways bars camp but I do realize that the softer sprung car doesn't have that instant feedback. A lot of drivers don't like or cope with that set up well. 

I also wouldn't get hung up on having coilovers; if you can get lowering springs in the rates you need than just go with that. Just for fun I looked and Rockauto had a Bilstein kit for your car for $1500.

Buy the best bits your budget will allow and go have fun.

 

 

Thanks, but im not a total noob so this. Im passed the whole "get what i can afford and have fun" place. This is my fourth project car, and ive run through soft springs, cheap shocks, medium springs, better shocks, no sways, perfect sways, street tires, sticky tires, and all sorts of configurations.

so i know exactly what i need out of this current project.

the problem is that im new to the audi suspensions world. I dont have memorized brand quality or how the car is going to react to certain things.

Id say the main concern this:   Dampers that will be inadequate for track use or springrate,  and coilover design that will not provide adequate suspension travel at my chosen ride height.  And of course staying within budget

Keep hunting for a shop that offers revalving, this is one in Michigan

$120 per a corner obviously shipping would be extra. Revalving HDs and getting GC sleeves and starting with the springs you're thinking, or slightly lower as you've lightened the vehicle, is the answer. If you deviate from it and you're not completely satisfied, You're going to end up responding the same money within the next 24 months feeling that any alternative decision made was a mistake. Keep looking for a vendor to rebuild the bilsteins at a price point that make it feasible for you. 

Tadope said:

Tom1200 said:

In reply to Tadope :

Did your previous softly sprung car suck to drive?

I'm in the soft springs & bigger sways bars camp but I do realize that the softer sprung car doesn't have that instant feedback. A lot of drivers don't like or cope with that set up well. 

I also wouldn't get hung up on having coilovers; if you can get lowering springs in the rates you need than just go with that. Just for fun I looked and Rockauto had a Bilstein kit for your car for $1500.

Buy the best bits your budget will allow and go have fun.

 

 

Thanks, but im not a total noob so this. Im passed the whole "get what i can afford and have fun" place. This is my fourth project car, and ive run through soft springs, cheap shocks, medium springs, better shocks, no sways, perfect sways, street tires, sticky tires, and all sorts of configurations.

so i know exactly what i need out of this current project.

the problem is that im new to the audi suspensions world. I dont have memorized brand quality or how the car is going to react to certain things.

Id say the main concern this:   Dampers that will be inadequate for track use or springrate,  and coilover design that will not provide adequate suspension travel at my chosen ride height.  And of course staying within budget

I think Tom's saying you are going the direction of "stiff springs, cheap shocks" due to your budget limitations, which may be slower AND less enjoyable (as well as more costly in the long run) than going with something that will be more softly sprung. No one is accusing you of being a noob, but trying to offer advice due to your tight budgetary constraints without knowing you from Adam.

I know stiff seems fast but cheap shocks dont do "stiff" worth a dayum. 

I totally agree and i just want to say that im amazed by all your support.  Never seen this much feedback this fast before!

ok ill look towards revalving.  If i find the energy i could just diy also. But personal labor is running short these days. Haha. Also i would prefer adjustable damping. Is turning up an adjustable damper a way to match a stiffer spring? Or is that just dumb?

what do you guys think about ceika? For 1099$ they build coils with any rate you want and valving to match. And they have "race valving" for +$160.   Sounds like the total answer. Only think stopping me is that theyre made at that same taiwan factory of bc ksport etc.

In reply to Tadope :

you might as well order blind on alibi versus going ceika. Any company that also does nearly universal "big brake kits" with adjustment to the caliper backet adapter to fit all the things, is a hard pass for me. Their products look to be pure instagram spec. 

In reply to Tadope :

My philosophy is that adjustable dampers are for fine tuning. If they are way off, adjusting them will only make things less sucky.

Any chance of finding some one with used coilovers that are in need of rebuild? As you planned on custom valving this might be a cheaper alternative.

Ok. Good ideas ill look into it.

I also tried to get info on he st xta adjustable coils. Which are rebadged kw v2 at lower cost.

kw rep said they are "not designed for track and will void their warranty!"   I was like wtf!

One more idea pending the whole legality / class question.  I have run Bilstein PSS9 previously and they were a great balance of track / streetable.  New they look like $1500 and change which is good but might get close to some of the real track focused setups available.  I loved them on my 99 FR6 GTI and lifetime warranty which I took advantage of after ~100K miles of mixed daily and autox duty.

Super long shot, and I have zero experience with them, but can you adapt the crazy cheap penske from spec pinata?

I'm in the process of ordering a custom spec set of coilovers from YCW, that fall just within your budget after a bit of discount offered below their website pricing. I've been thoroughly impressed with their knowledge, their respect of my knowledge, their patience (and open honesty) with me regarding my barrage of unusual technical questions, and their overall approach/philosophy.

wvumtnbkr said:

Super long shot, and I have zero experience with them, but can you adapt the crazy cheap penske from spec pinata?

Unlikely.

Adapting from a related Audi platform, like the A4, makes more sense. From a quick search last night, it seems that generation is based on the Audi A3........but that platform seems to share a lot of parts with the A4. 

YCW yes!  I forgot,about them  are a definite possibility!

And about a4 and platforms, the tt is actually sharing the mk4 golf platform/chassis. It is identical to the mk4 golf r32.  This is confusing because the mk4 golf platform is named "a4"but is not related to the longitudinal engine audi a4 sedan.

St suspension gave me this info.   The xta coilover(with damping adjustability) comes with 400f/600/r. Springs, and can handle a max of 150lb increase in springrate. Not bad. Definitely an option.
 

I see a few options based on that info:

RSS Clubsport

KW V2's

I would think the KW V2's would be a pretty good bolt on solution in your budget?

Tadope said:

I totally agree and i just want to say that im amazed by all your support.  Never seen this much feedback this fast before!

Welcome to the GRM forums. You'd better get used to it; that's how we roll here 

thatsnowinnebago (Forum Supporter) said:

Tadope said:

I totally agree and i just want to say that im amazed by all your support.  Never seen this much feedback this fast before!

Welcome to the GRM forums. You'd better get used to it; that's how we roll here 

excellent!!!