m3 or s2000

wish I knew why everyone puts down the Z3 and Ti for it's rear suspension. While it is not as advanced as the one under the standard E36 and newer cars.. it was certainly capable enough to be under the rear of one of the most successful touring cars of all time.. the E30M3

mad_machine wrote: wish I knew why everyone puts down the Z3 and Ti for it's rear suspension. While it is not as advanced as the one under the standard E36 and newer cars.. it was certainly capable enough to be under the rear of one of the most successful touring cars of all time.. the E30M3

Because it acts all funny when compression makes the rear control arm pass level like when its fully loaded and accelerating out of a corner... it takes some surgery and some shortened travel to make that stop trying to kill you. Opposite lock at triple digit speeds is fun and all but it is not really the fastest way around ;)

You need to make the toe and camber adjustable and raise the pick-ups a little (kinda like a drop-spindle) to lower the car enough. Combined with stiffer springs to limit the travel it can work very well. I am in the middle of that surgery right now - but its less capable as-is than the better multi-link setups on the rest of the E36 and beyond.

Easy. e36 M3 FTW. After decades of Hondas I got a 58k mile one owner '98 M3 coupe. They're pretty much at the bottom of their depreciation curve, the sh1tty ones have brought down values of the good ones, and they're sort of the new Honda Civic for the until-recently-baggy-pantsed set, so balled up nice cars are readily available.

There's tons of aftermarket support, they're absolutely bulletproof, and they go, turn and stop like a junior supercar for about no money.

I left mine stock for a year and autocrossed it in a "just for fun" club w/ just a set of RA1s. Last year I prepped it to about 85% of STU rule limits, did 2 autocross series and a few track days, and other than a little harshness, it's still a reasonable street car, and your pavement is likely better than what we've got here in DC. 525/625# springs highlight the issues...

It's the best money I've ever spent on a vehicle, period...

Its amusing how German car owners have grown used to thinking that having to completely redo a car's cooling and suspension system (bushings control arms etc) by 70k miles is normal. :)

Been there done that.

Both are good driving cars though. Drive what you like and fits your needs.

First off, it's a great time to be a driver when these choices are available.

Second, this is a debate that's close to my heart. I owned an 05 S2K and thought it was great, though a bit tiring for a 50-mile roundtrip commute in traffic. My best friend has been selling me on E36 M3s for years now, and I was this >< close to buying a nicely modified one about six months ago...and I should have done it!

Either way you'll love what you get. They're both great cars, and others have covered the main differences.

For me, it's still a tough choice - I miss having a convertible, and the S2K at the top of the rev range produces a great sound. Oddly, though, I found the car overly rough in the 4-5K range, which is where you need to keep it if you want to have power on hand. The suspension is incredibly responsive to throttle inputs (I'll stop very far short of calling it twitchy, because it's not), and you'll find yourself looking for excuses to make u-turns on deserted roads.

The M3 is a great driver's car and will make you look like a hero. It has a lot more pull than the S2K, especially in the low and mid ranges (where all the Germans put their attention). And they ride pretty nice too. Yes, there's more preventative maintenance, but if you're not paying a shop it's not all that bad. S2K will probably need a valve job if it hasn't had one already.

amg_rx7 wrote: Its amusing how German car owners have grown used to thinking that having to completely redo a car's cooling and suspension system (bushings control arms etc) by 70k miles is normal. :) Been there done that. Both are good driving cars though. Drive what you like and fits your needs.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that it's a price I'm willing to pay to drive a practical (that's what I tell my wife ) sedan that makes me grin like a maniac every time I drive it. I put mine on the road March 1st, after parking it for the snow. I expect I need to do the bushing work, and some deferred maintenance done, but for less than what I paid for my Protege, the car is brilliant. (I paid ~4900USD for mine with 87k miles: salvage title) The motor sounds great, and has plenty of pull for a street car, and the car has higher limits than I'd ever feel comfortable exploring on the street. It'll be my "long-term commuter (27-28mpg so far) and toy and auto-xer in one" It's hard to beat that. I'll happily pay $600 every couple years to own a car like that.

Nathan

If you want torque, I'd recommend a '67 Cutlass.

walterj wrote: Because it acts all funny when compression makes the rear control arm pass level like when its fully loaded and accelerating out of a corner... it takes some surgery and some shortened travel to make that stop trying to kill you. Opposite lock at triple digit speeds is fun and all but it is not really the fastest way around ;) You need to make the toe and camber adjustable and raise the pick-ups a little (kinda like a drop-spindle) to lower the car enough. Combined with stiffer springs to limit the travel it can work very well. I am in the middle of that surgery right now - but its less capable as-is than the better multi-link setups on the rest of the E36 and beyond.

Yes, I run Bilstien's PSS9 coilovers (not really coilovers on the rear) on my Ti and I have it set so the rear arms are just a bit before level in normal driving.

Between the stiffer springs and shocks, it rarely gets much beyond level when cornering and putting all 138hp to the ground.. but I will admit to going on a spirited run with other BMW owners and being told by the guy behind me that I went though most of the corners sideways..

I wish he had his rollbar mounted camera running.. I would have loved shots of that

amg_rx7 wrote: Its amusing how German car owners have grown used to thinking that having to completely redo a car's cooling and suspension system (bushings control arms etc) by 70k miles is normal. :) Been there done that. Both are good driving cars though. Drive what you like and fits your needs.

What is this magical brand/model of car you drive where suspension components aren't worn out and needing replaced after 70k miles, especially given how most people on this forum use their cars?

What is this magical brand/model of car you drive where suspension components aren't worn out and needing replaced after 70k miles, especially given how most people on this forum use their cars?

Every Honda I've ever owned that I didn't race.

bravenrace wrote: If you want torque, I'd recommend a '67 Cutlass.

The 9mpg and 4:33 gears / 3 speed trans don't make for a good daily driver :(

Also, I have an appointment to see the m3 tomorrow, wish me luck once again :)

Good luck!

Things you may know.....but useful in getting the price down:

Make sure the cooling system has been upgraded/ replaced. (crappy plastic fatigues and breaks)

Check the rear subframe mounts to make sure they are in good shape. (should be unless the car has been extensively tracked)

Play with all the electronics to make sure they work (stereo, trip computer, pw,pdl, pw, etc.)

Door panels have a tendency to detach themselves.

Check for CEL lights (bane of E36 cars) Probably nothing seriously wrong.....but seller may not know this.

Check underbody panels beneath front spoiler. These often come loose and break. Also, check "kidneys" and front grill. If they move around and are missing fastening clips, the car may have been hit.

I've heard some E36 M3s give a lifter tick at idle that usually goes away when warm. These have mostly been in driven hard/ put away wet cars. Other examples are smooth, smooth, smooth with no tick.

Hopefully it is a nice example. Mine is still a joy to drive with over 130K. Hard to beat as a do it all machine.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1997-bmw-m3/

yes, yes, S2000s are great too, but really a whole different animal.

bravenrace wrote:

What is this magical brand/model of car you drive where suspension components aren't worn out and needing replaced after 70k miles, especially given how most people on this forum use their cars?

Every Honda I've ever owned that I didn't race.

what he said. and my ford didn't need it's suspension done until about 120k miles.

Figured I'd make an update. Drove an AP1 today. Pretty underwhelming, not nearly as fast as I expected. Really weak off the line and up until 6000rpm. It pretty much pulls like a miata until 6k, then it feels like a bomb exploded behind the miata and it pulls pretty hard until 9k (and repeat). The only problem with that is you're either driving mundane style or felony style, with no in-between. The power delivery would be nice on a track but on the street I wouldn't want to deal with it. The handling was awesome and the car was very responsive to inputs. The interior was small but pretty nice. The top went up and down quickly and easily.

It was an interesting experience that I needed. Let's hope the m3 leaves me impressed!

The E36 M3 and the AP1 will be the future GRM car of choice.

So I drove the m3. It felt a LOT faster than the s2000. The brakes were epic. Overall it was much more comfortable and nicer to drive. This one had aftermarket springs I think but it rode softer than the s2000 and handled as well. The car really made me happy, so now I'm the proud owner of a silver/dove m3 hardtop coupe!

1967cutlass wrote: So I drove the m3. It felt a LOT faster than the s2000. The brakes were epic. Overall it was much more comfortable and nicer to drive. This one had aftermarket springs I think but it rode softer than the s2000 and handled as well. The car really made me happy, so now I'm the proud owner of a silver/dove m3 hardtop coupe!

Congrats. I miss mine! I'd highly recommend http://www.bmw-m.net/ as an informative resource. Even though I don't have an M3 anymore, I still choose to get the digest from this site. It doesn't have much traffic but many of the participants are wrenchers, racers, etc who've owned e36 M3's since their introduction in 1995.

1967cutlass wrote:

bravenrace wrote: If you want torque, I'd recommend a '67 Cutlass.

The 9mpg and 4:33 gears / 3 speed trans don't make for a good daily driver :(

Hmm, it did in 1975...or was it just me?

I say m3. Both are nice cars. I say M3, because an s2000 will need an aftermarket roll bar or similar if you ever want to do a track day with it. While there are million prefabbed bars out there for miatas, there doesn't seem to be a ton for the s2000 that aren't total pita.

Congrats!

Fantastic color combination too. I'm jealous, my Cosmos Black car looks great when clean, but it only stays clean for 10 minutes or so! Silver is a great choice.

Good luck, and nice find

sachilles wrote: I say m3. Both are nice cars. I say M3, because an s2000 will need an aftermarket roll bar or similar if you ever want to do a track day with it. While there are million prefabbed bars out there for miatas, there doesn't seem to be a ton for the s2000 that aren't total pita.

Unless things have changed in the last couple years, the S2000's integrated roll hoops are enough protection for track day/HPDE use. I took my car out twice and never had an issue.

To the OP - congrats on the car! It's almost unbelievable what good condition M3s are going for these days.

congrats, do post pics if possible.

Joe Gearin wrote: Congrats! Fantastic color combination too. I'm jealous, my Cosmos Black car looks great when clean, but it only stays clean for 10 minutes or so! Silver is a great choice. Good luck, and nice find

+1, congrats and excellent color choice. Replace Joe's statement above with "Boston Green" and you'll see why I'm jealous of your silver.

Jon

speedblind wrote: Unless things have changed in the last couple years, the S2000's integrated roll hoops are enough protection for track day/HPDE use. I took my car out twice and never had an issue.

Depends on the track, mostly. Around here VIR has never allowed 'em and Summit Point may be going that way this season too from what I've heard.

Jon