Maximum bob opens mouth.. Hilarity ensues

P71 wrote:

ignorant wrote:

rogerbvonceg wrote: Well, the "difference" rears its ugly head again. Toyota says: "My name is on every car, and we will fix this." GM says: "His fault." So, Mr. Lutz, what is your process for handling supplier parts that do not meet your requirements? "Install them, hope for the best, and if the E36 M3 hits the fan, blame Toyota."

ha ha Garbage motors at its best.

Toyota has recalled over 10,000,000 cars in the US, killed at least 37 people, still hasn't found the problem, and covered up information on rollovers. There's a $1,000,000 bounty to "prove" the unintended acceleration *isn't* the pedal, a leaked internal document declares "victory" for stalling or canceling recalls, sales are down 9-10% in a huge up month, and they are under investigation for hiring ex-NHSTA employees. Yet when a Toyota-related part fails for GM it's "garbage motors" and "I'll never put a GM in my driveway". Do y'all realize how berkleying *ridiculous* you sound?

Its all how you react to the problem...

If maximum bob had said "Sorry about that, As an officer of the company I take full responsibility for all issues" then there wouldn't be a story...

P71 wrote: sales are down 9-10% in a huge up month, and they are under investigation for hiring ex-NHSTA employees.

Sales are up 25% in Canada the month of February.

HiTempguy wrote:

P71 wrote: sales are down 9-10% in a huge up month, and they are under investigation for hiring ex-NHSTA employees.

Sales are up 25% in Canada the month of February.

Hell yeah, I tell everyone at work I know to go to a toyota dealer and hammer them for price... It is time to buy them.

P71 wrote:

ignorant wrote:

rogerbvonceg wrote: Well, the "difference" rears its ugly head again. Toyota says: "My name is on every car, and we will fix this." GM says: "His fault." So, Mr. Lutz, what is your process for handling supplier parts that do not meet your requirements? "Install them, hope for the best, and if the E36 M3 hits the fan, blame Toyota."

ha ha Garbage motors at its best.

Toyota has recalled over 10,000,000 cars in the US, killed at least 37 people, still hasn't found the problem, and covered up information on rollovers. There's a $1,000,000 bounty to "prove" the unintended acceleration *isn't* the pedal, a leaked internal document declares "victory" for stalling or canceling recalls, sales are down 9-10% in a huge up month, and they are under investigation for hiring ex-NHSTA employees. Yet when a Toyota-related part fails for GM it's "garbage motors" and "I'll never put a GM in my driveway". Do y'all realize how berkleying *ridiculous* you sound?

Let's keep those numbers straight. As of the release of the GM recall, Toyota's recall number was just over eight million. And there still isn't proof of the 37 deaths, to be purely objective here.

I won't put either in my driveway. But the way GM is handling this now... blame toyota? berkeley them.

And again... how exactly is this part in GM "Toyota-related?" Bob grabbed at straws and made the wrong comment. You're following in the footsteps.

I mean... My Mitsubishi spare TV sucks. It's the Evo's fault. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

I'm not defending Maximum Bob, he's past the expiration date. I wouldn't put any GM or Toyota made today in my driveway.

I'm just pointing out that there is a massive difference in reactions here depending on which company is talking that's frankly kind of unfair.

And celica, the 10mil + number comes from Edmunds, and the 37 deaths are the confirmed ones, including the 4 in SoCal from the floormat that started this whole mess.

About stalling or canceling recalls being a 'victory': sometimes it's just exactly that.

Recalls are expensive in terms of money and time. And sometimes the NHTSA can get a bit big for their britches. Settle down for a little story:

In the late 80's, the NHTSA did seat belt failure testing for rear mounted seat belts with a 150 pound dead weight and, IIRC, a 35 MPH crash. Lots of cars passed with flying colors. Then around 1992 or 1993, the test was changed to utilize a 175 pound dead weight. In testing, a GM A body car (Century, etc) and a Chrysler test car each showed tearing of the metal around the rear seat belt mount points.

So the NHTSA decreed that ALL of the cars with that seat belt mounting system (going back to 1985) had to be recalled EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD PASSED THE ORIGINAL TEST. GM rolled over and recalled a helluva lot of cars, Chrysler took them to court and won.

P71 wrote: I'm not defending Maximum Bob, he's past the expiration date. I wouldn't put *any* GM or Toyota made today in my driveway. I'm just pointing out that there is a *massive* difference in reactions here depending on which company is talking that's frankly kind of unfair. And celica, the 10mil + number comes from Edmunds, and the 37 deaths *are* the confirmed ones, including the 4 in SoCal from the floormat that started this whole mess.

There's a massive difference in reactions here because i would bet that before this whole debacle, more people here were toyota fans than GM fans. It's just like how you like the P71, and hate the V6 Camry *i'm sure you're not alone). I hate the P71, and i'm not alone here, and mildly enjoy a V6 Camry, as sick as that sounds.

Well... like it or not, there's people that don't agree with you. It's a matter of opinion, and that's all. You think the difference here is unfair. I think the difference in the media is HORRIBLY unfair. So the balance evens out.

93celicaGT2 wrote: Well... like it or not, there's people that don't agree with you. It's a matter of opinion, and that's all. You think the difference here is unfair. I think the difference in the media is HORRIBLY unfair. So the balance evens out.

What's funny about that is that most of us INSIDE the Big 3 see that we ususally get the unfiar shake from the US media. Noting that over the past decade, Toyota and Ford have both had their share of major recalls. Yet, Toyota's was a whole lot larger with the oil sludging. But you all know the Firestone tires which covered a whole lot fewer vehicles.

Even now, I still think Toyota is getting more than the benefit of the doubt on this one, based on previous reactions to GM, Ford, and Chrysler issues.

The only reason you see this as unfair is because it unballances your preceptions of Toyota. Just like my data that Toyota spends $5k more per car to make than GM does (read their financials).

IMHO, it's about time that more truths come out of Toyota.

Eric

alfadriver wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: Well... like it or not, there's people that don't agree with you. It's a matter of opinion, and that's all. You think the difference here is unfair. I think the difference in the media is HORRIBLY unfair. So the balance evens out.

What's funny about that is that most of us INSIDE the Big 3 see that we ususally get the unfiar shake from the US media. Noting that over the past decade, Toyota and Ford have both had their share of major recalls. Yet, Toyota's was a whole lot larger with the oil sludging. But you all know the Firestone tires which covered a whole lot fewer vehicles. Even now, I still think Toyota is getting more than the benefit of the doubt on this one, based on previous reactions to GM, Ford, and Chrysler issues. The only reason you see this as unfair is because it unballances your preceptions of Toyota. Just like my data that Toyota spends $5k more per car to make than GM does (read their financials). IMHO, it's about time that more truths come out of Toyota. Eric

I'm unsure of what the $5k more per car has to do with anything...?

And again... i point out that this is a difference in opinion and what we've thought of brands based on past experiences. This hasn't changed my perception of Toyota in the slightest. My perception is that pre-90s toyotas, celicas, supra, and MR2s are awesome. The rest? Don't care.

My perception is still relevant, but isn't affected by any of the crap that goes on today.

But what you're in effect saying, or what i'm getting from your post is that you think it's OK for Bobbo there to place the blame on their E36 M3ty cars (mind you, this issue has been at hand for quite some time) on Toyota?

People bought up the point that the current GM recall is totally different from Toyota's, different situation. (PEOPLE DIED!!!!!!!)

Yeah. Well. That's why you heard about it.

PEOPLE DIED!!!!!!!! In the Firestone/Exploder debacle. That's why we heard about it. Sludge never killed anybody. That's why you didn't hear about it. And MOST people did, anyways. Not a great example. If you use that, you're basically saying that you think GM should be treated a lot harsher now for their current issue. Gotta stay consistent. (As for the sludge... can you tell me why the 96+ Toyota 5sfe engine is "prone to sludging?" What change exactly was made in the design of the motor vs... say... the 90-95 5sfe? The sludging issue is a crock of E36 M3 for various reasons.)

alfadriver wrote: Just like my data that Toyota spends $5k more per car to make than GM does (read their financials). Eric

Yup.. They pay OT to engineers and salaried workers.

I had a front row seat during the application/testing process of prospective employees when Toyota built its Tundra plant in San Antonio, as both of my parents worked part-time administering the tests.

From what i saw, Toyota's hiring processes were EXTREMELY stringent, and while im confident i could have gotten through it (with a FAR from perfect score), i AM amazed that they managed to fill the ~2000 slots with people of that caliber in a city like San Antonio. Toyota even talked about regretting their choice of location because they had such a hard time finding qualified labor in the local market ( took over a year of testing people to get enough through).

I do like what i see, in a sense. The people that get the jobs there in San Antonio really deserve them (vs...detroit?), and toyota works them for every cent of their pay. I personally wouldnt be willing to work that hard for the $18/hr they started them at.

So compared to GM and their ridiculous labor and legacy costs, if Toyota manages to spend more money building cars, its not at ground level, because the factory in San Antonio seems to be a pretty damn tight ship.

P71 wrote: I'm not defending Maximum Bob, he's past the expiration date.

Indeed. He's about to retire again

JoeyM wrote:

P71 wrote: I'm not defending Maximum Bob, he's past the expiration date.

Indeed. He's about to retire again

Yeah, he shoulda stayed retired the first time and not messed up his pretty stellar career. Reminds me of a certain grouchy old Texan...

If you follow my post history, you'll see where I've criticized Toyota.

My criticism here is only for the remark made by Bob Lutz, although someone later suggested it may have been toungue in cheek.

I have driven some GM vehicles that really impressed me, and lately I'd have to say their design work is often inspiring.

Toyota? Barring their great cars of the past, their mantra is "bland but predictable."

Vigo said it once took them a year to staff a new plant in San Antonio. Well, how many other plants have they built since then? Was a year really enough time? By their own admission now, they were too focused on growth, and on being the #1 car company in America. They had everything going for them and then they got greedy.

93celicaGT2 wrote: I'm unsure of what the $5k more per car has to do with anything...? And again... i point out that this is a difference in opinion and what we've thought of brands based on past experiences. This hasn't changed my perception of Toyota in the slightest. My perception is that pre-90s toyotas, celicas, supra, and MR2s are awesome. The rest? Don't care. My perception is still relevant, but isn't affected by any of the crap that goes on today. But what you're in effect saying, or what i'm getting from your post is that you think it's OK for Bobbo there to place the blame on their E36 M3ty cars (mind you, this issue has been at hand for quite some time) on Toyota? People bought up the point that the current GM recall is totally different from Toyota's, different situation. (PEOPLE DIED!!!!!!!) Yeah. Well. That's why you heard about it. PEOPLE DIED!!!!!!!! In the Firestone/Exploder debacle. That's why we heard about it. Sludge never killed anybody. That's why you didn't hear about it. And MOST people did, anyways. Not a great example. If you use that, you're basically saying that you think GM should be treated a lot harsher now for their current issue. Gotta stay consistent. (As for the sludge... can you tell me why the 96+ Toyota 5sfe engine is "prone to sludging?" What change exactly was made in the design of the motor vs... say... the 90-95 5sfe? The sludging issue is a crock of E36 M3 for various reasons.)

The $5k is this question- who is the lower cost manufacturer of cars, GM or Totota? Most people will respond Toyota, but the reality is that it's GM by $5k. And it's NOT engineering or OT, iggy- it's in the cost of making the cars. Read their financial numbers- revenue, cost of revenue, normalize to # of units. You can make up all the reasons you want, but the fact of the matter is that Toyota spends more to make cars than GM does. That goes against preceptions.

I'm not saying that what bob is doing is good, all I'm saying is that what Toyota does isn't nearly what you precieve it to be. GM's cars are not nearly as bad as you think they are, either. Not great, no, but not what most people precieve.

Eric

I've always viewed GM products as cheap cars.

That's why I'd rather drive Toyotas.

alfadriver wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: I'm unsure of what the $5k more per car has to do with anything...? And again... i point out that this is a difference in opinion and what we've thought of brands based on past experiences. This hasn't changed my perception of Toyota in the slightest. My perception is that pre-90s toyotas, celicas, supra, and MR2s are awesome. The rest? Don't care. My perception is still relevant, but isn't affected by any of the crap that goes on today. But what you're in effect saying, or what i'm getting from your post is that you think it's OK for Bobbo there to place the blame on their E36 M3ty cars (mind you, this issue has been at hand for quite some time) on Toyota? People bought up the point that the current GM recall is totally different from Toyota's, different situation. (PEOPLE DIED!!!!!!!) Yeah. Well. That's why you heard about it. PEOPLE DIED!!!!!!!! In the Firestone/Exploder debacle. That's why we heard about it. Sludge never killed anybody. That's why you didn't hear about it. And MOST people did, anyways. Not a great example. If you use that, you're basically saying that you think GM should be treated a lot harsher now for their current issue. Gotta stay consistent. (As for the sludge... can you tell me why the 96+ Toyota 5sfe engine is "prone to sludging?" What change exactly was made in the design of the motor vs... say... the 90-95 5sfe? The sludging issue is a crock of E36 M3 for various reasons.)

The $5k is this question- who is the lower cost manufacturer of cars, GM or Totota? Most people will respond Toyota, but the reality is that it's GM by $5k. And it's NOT engineering or OT, iggy- it's in the cost of making the cars. Read their financial numbers- revenue, cost of revenue, normalize to # of units. You can make up all the reasons you want, but the fact of the matter is that Toyota spends more to make cars than GM does. That goes against preceptions. I'm not saying that what bob is doing is good, all I'm saying is that what Toyota does isn't nearly what you precieve it to be. GM's cars are not nearly as bad as you think they are, either. Not great, no, but not what most people precieve. Eric

I'm still not understanding what exactly the manufacturing cost has to do with this conversation... i feel like i'm missing something big, here. I don't particularly care how much it takes to make the car... i care about how much it costs me to buy the car. Manufacturing costs be damned, if i can afford it, and if i like it, i buy it. If i can afford it, and i like it, i don't think to myself "Hrmmm... well, this car costs so and so company less to produce, i think i'll buy that one instead."

Again... i feel like i'm missing something here.

preception vs. reality

P71 wrote: Toyota has recalled over 10,000,000 cars in the US, killed at least 37 people, still hasn't found the problem, and covered up information on rollovers. There's a $1,000,000 bounty to "prove" the unintended acceleration *isn't* the pedal, a leaked internal document declares "victory" for stalling or canceling recalls, sales are down 9-10% in a huge up month, and they are under investigation for hiring ex-NHSTA employees. Yet when a Toyota-related part fails for GM it's "garbage motors" and "I'll never put a GM in my driveway". Do y'all realize how berkleying *ridiculous* you sound?

All I know is that my Camaro was the most unreliable car I've ever owned (from new), and the Toyota I have now, the most reliable. Say what you want but I know what I'm buying next.

alfadriver wrote: preception vs. reality

Oh... example use only. Got it. My bad.

I'm not sure that the majority (at least in my area) would agree with the perception that Toyotas cost less to produce than GMs, but you're right. Decent example.

More dipE36 M3tery from an ambulance chaser in Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2010/03/02/consumer-tony-merchant-toyota-pontiac-vibe.html

He's starting a class action suit against Toyota over the Vibe. He's claiming the pedals in the Vibe are faulty as well.

Apparently he didn't bother to do the research and find out that the Vibe is recalled as well.

I love his statement: "It's not a solvable problem because you have to put in a new system and the only way to put in a new system would be to get all these things back to the factory," Merchant said in an interview with CBC News.

He doesn't seem to understand what a recall does either.

Shawn

3Door4G wrote: I've always viewed GM products as cheap cars. That's why I'd rather drive Toyotas.

Do you drive any performance cars?

kb58 wrote:

P71 wrote: Toyota has recalled over 10,000,000 cars in the US, killed at least 37 people, still hasn't found the problem, and covered up information on rollovers. There's a $1,000,000 bounty to "prove" the unintended acceleration *isn't* the pedal, a leaked internal document declares "victory" for stalling or canceling recalls, sales are down 9-10% in a huge up month, and they are under investigation for hiring ex-NHSTA employees. Yet when a Toyota-related part fails for GM it's "garbage motors" and "I'll never put a GM in my driveway". Do y'all realize how berkleying *ridiculous* you sound?

All I know is that my Camaro was the most unreliable car I've ever owned (from new), and the Toyota I have now, the most reliable. Say what you want but I know what I'm buying next.

Funny I've owned 50 plus cars and the most unreliable was my stock MKIV Supra. I'm not single sighted enough to claim I'll never buy another Toyota though...if they ever make anything worth a damn performance wise again that is.
Last two new cars we bought were GM, last new motorcycle was Honda, but the next one is looking like it will be the BMW K1300S.

alfadriver wrote: preception vs. reality

Perception IS reality to many people. Seen it far too many times to count. I have seen people who SWORE that a GMC was a COMPLETELY different truck from a Chevy. That's why Toyota can hang a Lexus badge on a Toyota and charge ~30% more for it. Or how Ford can slap a Lincoln badge on a Ford with the same result.

Cotton wrote:

3Door4G wrote: I've always viewed GM products as cheap cars. That's why I'd rather drive Toyotas.

Do you drive any performance cars?

Define a performance car. I've driven tons of cars. The most performance-oriented car I've actually owned is an Integra GSR. But I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion.

Maybe I should rephrase this. I'm not interested in owning anything made recently by either GM or Toyota, even if I could afford a new car. However, if I had to pick, I'd choose a Toyota.

I used to work in MD state emissions so I've sat in just about every car sold in the US from 1985-2006. I'll easily believe GM spends less on every car they produce. I could see that every time I sat in one. And that is my point.