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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/23/20 9:41 p.m.

If you guys are counting on instrumented track times in the middle of a Colorado winter, you are overestimating my commitment to this cause :)

Yes, sometimes the best choice for suspension is "don't let it move". But it takes a pretty crappy chassis and only in a very small subset of conditions like a smooth autocross course. You can run a Miata on the bumpstops like that Challenge Accord a few years ago. It's not a good idea, but you can do it.

I've thought about the weight set idea. Again, thinking about the level of commitment here :) I don't have one at home, and I'm not sure I'm ready to take a dial indicator to the gym. What really matters is how they actually work in the real world. That's what I'm planning to check out.

dherr
dherr GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
1/23/20 9:54 p.m.

Watching with interest, can't wait to hear how they perform (or we learn you get what you pay for) which is what we are expecting :-)

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
1/24/20 4:43 a.m.

You can test springs with a press and a bathroom scale and a caliper with a little creativity. You're limited to the range/accuracy of the scale, but it works as well as trusting what's printed on the spring, especially if there is nothing printed on the spring. 

Probably not a Keith Tanner level quantity test (dude is wearing a freaking lab coat, who even owns a lab coat? laugh ) but for adventurers at home, it is possible. 

I too await the results of the driving tests. 

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
1/24/20 5:46 a.m.

FWIW, I ran my 2017 Challenge Miata on the Bilstein shocks it came with and the finest Chinesium springs and coilover  sleeves one could find for $40 on Ebay. Springs were labeled 450# and 350#. It handled well enough to only be beaten by one car, the Georgia Tech Insight. Now , I realize the Bilsteins ought to be much better than these things, but still, the components were good enough. I have to wonder how long the springs would last had I left them in the car. I'll be curious to see Keith's evaluation because there's a used set of these things on FB Marketplace for $100 and I need some Miata front springs and shocks for my next Challenge car.

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo GRM+ Memberand Mod Squad
1/24/20 6:02 a.m.

poking around, and after reading this, I wonder if swapping the accord shock/spring setup into the Miata mounts would end up being a better match?

Although, I don't know how long the accord shocks are in comparison to the Miata ones... and if it's too far a stretch to assume they use the same diameter shock, which will mount into the Miata mounts... but, that's how my mind thinks.

and, anyways, this amounts to doing development for maxpeedingrods... and I'm not sure anyone actually wants to sign up for that?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 10:22 a.m.
mazdeuce - Seth said:

You can test springs with a press and a bathroom scale and a caliper with a little creativity. You're limited to the range/accuracy of the scale, but it works as well as trusting what's printed on the spring, especially if there is nothing printed on the spring. 

Probably not a Keith Tanner level quantity test (dude is wearing a freaking lab coat, who even owns a lab coat? laugh ) but for adventurers at home, it is possible. 

I too await the results of the driving tests. 

I could certainly use a cornerweight scale and our press, but that's getting into the realm of the dangerous and exciting lash-up as I put hundreds of pounds of force via a fairly small diameter shaft into a spring that is unconstrained. I could weld up a testing rig to retain the spring in case of a RUD, but refer to above committment level. The weight lifting set is actually a pretty safe option as there's no way to launch the spring. Verifying that the spring rates printed on the springs (and they are) is exactly what the rate is does not matter as much to me as seeing how they last with some miles and how the shocks are valved.

As for the lab coat - when word got out that we were building the XXXocet (an Exocet with a 556 hp supercharged LSA), Warren (designer of said Exocet) said he'd give me a labcoat with Professor BatE36 M3 on it if we built it. We did, and he presented me with my lab coat at a ceremony at the Mitty after we delivered the car. You might have to zoom in to see the name, but it gives me pleasure to wear it. The t-shirt has Captain Science on it, a Golden Age comic book adventurer and space hero.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 10:34 a.m.

The preload/shock design video is on YouTube now. It's not specifically about the MaXpeedingRod coilovers, but it does discuss single vs two piece bodies and how that affects suspension travel and setup.

 

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 11:08 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I don't really have a way to do that other than trying to jury-rig something absurdly dangerous.

I'll be able to tell consistency of spring rate by the perch heights when it's installed and leveled. Then we see if they start to sag.

Doing the math of wire thickness/diameter/number of active coils is pretty accurate, and all you need is a dial calipers.

 

Also, can't wait to see the video when I get home.  "Preload" is one of my peeves and I'm sure I'll be fist-pumping and shouting YEAH!! while watching it.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 11:26 a.m.

You're making assumptions about the metallurgy when you're measuring dimensions. With CNC benders, you can be pretty sure the dimensions will be right, but that doesn't mean the metal is any good. I've seen some cheapo springs that are okay out of the box but start to fail quickly in service. And the way to test that is to put a car on them :)

einy
einy HalfDork
1/24/20 12:14 p.m.

Keith - interesting presentation, good info, but a question comes to mind.  Is preload a factor if progressively would springs are used? 

dps214
dps214 Reader
1/24/20 12:25 p.m.
Knurled. said:
Keith Tanner said:

I don't really have a way to do that other than trying to jury-rig something absurdly dangerous.

I'll be able to tell consistency of spring rate by the perch heights when it's installed and leveled. Then we see if they start to sag.

Doing the math of wire thickness/diameter/number of active coils is pretty accurate, and all you need is a dial calipers.

 

Also, can't wait to see the video when I get home.  "Preload" is one of my peeves and I'm sure I'll be fist-pumping and shouting YEAH!! while watching it.

I mean...that would tell you if they printed the wrong number on the spring. I wouldn't expect it to be any more accurate than that for the reasons Keith stated. If there was no indication of what the rates were I'd probably do that to get an idea of what the rates were absent any testing equipment. But that's about all it's useful for.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 12:28 p.m.
einy said:

Keith - interesting presentation, good info, but a question comes to mind.  Is preload a factor if progressively would springs are used? 

No. As soon as the force on the spring exceeds the preload, the preload ceases to exist.

If you have a 6" progressive spring that has an initial spring rate of 100 lb/in and you install it so that it's only 5.5" at full droop, it has 50 lbs of preload (0.5*100). This comes from the shock preventing the spring from extending further. When you put the car down on the suspension, as soon as more than 50 lbs of weight is sitting on that spring it will start to compress further. At that point, it doesn't matter how far the shock can theoretically extend. The spring only knows about the mass it's supporting.

Progessive vs linear springs don't make any difference here. 

What preload does do is determine how far the upper mount will fly if you take off the top nut with the shock out of the car :)

matthewmcl
matthewmcl New Reader
1/24/20 1:15 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

You're making assumptions about the metallurgy when you're measuring dimensions. With CNC benders, you can be pretty sure the dimensions will be right, but that doesn't mean the metal is any good. I've seen some cheapo springs that are okay out of the box but start to fail quickly in service. And the way to test that is to put a car on them :)

The metallurgical assumption is the springs are made of steel, as opposed to some wondermetal blended for casting old manifolds.  If it is lousy steel, it will quickly take a set and go soft, but the new stiffness will match the new coil spacing.

It is as accurate as the measurements that are taken and safe. When it comes to stiffness, steels all have stiffness that is more consistent across alloys than the wire diameter of a cheap spring is. Anything truly exotic is worth more as raw material than the value of a chinesium spring.

If you post measurements, several people here will likely crunch the numbers.

Thanks for the awesome and thorough write up, by the way.

Matthew

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 1:31 p.m.

For your number crunching excitement:

Front spring is 12.03 mm wire (powdercoated), 180mm long and has 5.75 coils. Rated 7kg/mm.

Rear spring is 11.47mm, 165mm long (printing says 160) and has 4.75 coils. Rated 6 kg/mm.

Interesting that the rear spring is shorter than the front. Usually it's the other way around on an NA/NB Miata for clearance to the upper control arm in front.

_
_ Dork
1/24/20 2:03 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Swap springs and see what happens. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 2:28 p.m.

Why? I'm not sure what that might prove. 

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 3:21 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

For your number crunching excitement:

Front spring is 12.03 mm wire (powdercoated), 180mm long and has 5.75 coils. Rated 7kg/mm.

Rear spring is 11.47mm, 165mm long (printing says 160) and has 4.75 coils. Rated 6 kg/mm.

Interesting that the rear spring is shorter than the front. Usually it's the other way around on an NA/NB Miata for clearance to the upper control arm in front.

Spring length is not important, and does not even factor into the calculation.  Spring diameter and number of active coils.

 

Basically, the math works out to "how long are the active coils if you straightened it out?".  Coil springs are torsion bars wound up like Q-bert.

 

You can make a spring with one active coil but it would have to twist a LOT between free length and coil bind.  Cheaper materials don't like twisting much.  Cheaper springs tend to have more active coils and thicker wire for the same length/rate, and this also means they will have a much taller height at coil bind.  I have some really heavy 250lb 14" springs that only have five inches of travel...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/20 4:39 p.m.

May not be important, but I know that when springs start to fail, their rate goes down and their free length gets shorter. It's one of the ways to evaluate the health of a spring, the change in free length.

These are 70.5mm ID, in case anyone is really crunching numbers and not just asking for random tech porn ;)

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/20 10:25 a.m.

One real use of spring preload is using it to counteract your rebound damping, effectively reducing it. It would be a very odd circumstance where this makes sense, but it's something you can use preload for.

Also if you get into extremely long springs like those used in high-end offroad vehicles, you can run into a problem where the entire spring can bow sideways instead of compressing normally, wider springs are less prone to it but width alone can't solve the problem in a practical way. To work around this you have to go to a multi-rate setup using multiple springs in series with spacers.

Two-piece shocks have one advantage other than cost, which is packaging flexibility, although making use of it involves making even more tradeoffs in suspension travel, and if money were no object you could always design a better single-piece shock with similar packaging. Still, this has been very handy for me when trying to package springs and sway bar mounts around extra-wide wheels on a tight budget for a car that doesn't need much suspension travel.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/20 10:32 a.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I can't think of any application that "doesn't need much suspension travel".

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/20 10:36 a.m.

I'm just here for the topic tags.

codrus
codrus GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/25/20 11:18 a.m.
Knurled. said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I can't think of any application that "doesn't need much suspension travel".

Superspeedways?

 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/20 1:00 p.m.
Knurled. said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I can't think of any application that "doesn't need much suspension travel".

Once your suspension is super-hard, the need for suspension travel in general decreases because the suspension isn't allowed to move much anyway. Then you can do all kinds of things on smooth surfaces without needing much travel. Autocross is a great example.

DjGreggieP
DjGreggieP Reader
1/25/20 1:05 p.m.

Looking at these is giving me bad ideas of coil over suspension for a vehicle that doesn't have an existing coil over suspension option... Which would probably be a horrible idea overall... 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/25/20 2:37 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:

One real use of spring preload is using it to counteract your rebound damping, effectively reducing it. It would be a very odd circumstance where this makes sense, but it's something you can use preload for.

Not sure I follow how you'd use that. Can you expand? Remember that the spring rate doesn't actually change with a preloaded spring. The only thing that happens is that when the shock is fully extended, it'll take a bit of extra load to start moving it if you're really, really lightly loaded. Say you've got 50 lbs of preload on your spring, this means the shock won't start to compress from full extension until you get to 50.1 lbs of load. But from that point on, it will be exactly the same.

I've realized (too late to put in the video) that when most people are talking about increasing preload and getting better handling, what they're really doing is moving the perch up (more preload) and then shortening the shock body so the ride height is the same. What's really going on here is that you're increasing the amount of compression travel, and in most street vehicle applications that means less time on the bumpstops and thus better handing. The preload is a side effect, not the cause.

I was going to mention the bowing problem with very long springs, but you can't package a spring in a Miata that's long enough to have that problem and it was a video for a Miata audience :) I think we use 12" springs in one of our ND applications.

Running multiple rates with multiple springs in spacers is a fun experiment. I did it on the Targa Miata years ago. You have to lock out the softer springs at static ride height, though, otherwise you cannot properly damp the springs. You either have to set up the shock for the light rate or the heavy rate or neither. The offroad guys who are doing it have bypass shocks that change damping depending on where they are in their travel.

Two-piece shocks have one advantage other than cost, which is packaging flexibility, although making use of it involves making even more tradeoffs in suspension travel, and if money were no object you could always design a better single-piece shock with similar packaging. Still, this has been very handy for me when trying to package springs and sway bar mounts around extra-wide wheels on a tight budget for a car that doesn't need much suspension travel.

If you're trying to put something where it doesn't belong, sure. A set of well-designed one-piece shocks will already be the correct dimensions for the application they're designed for, like you noted. It's not a money-no-object thing, either - some companies will happily build you a shock to your specific dimensions or provide the parts to build your own. AFCO, for example, lets you select your body length, shaft length, top and bottom fixing types at a pretty affordable price. You just have to figure out what those have to be. That's what I have on the MG, a set of very custom AFCOs that are exactly what I asked for.

There are places where you can get away without much suspension travel because you're not using much. But then someone else comes along with more suspension travel and is able to go faster over the one bump you had to lift for. Superspeedways are very much an unusual case, it's my understanding that they'll actually run the cars in full coil bind. Effectively no suspension at all.

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