The upgrade potential for a STI is also astronomical compared to the BRZ. Not just power, but handling. In ST classes nobody with a prepped BRZ is going to beat anyone in a WRX let alone a STI unless the WRX/STI drivers are E36 M3. Obviously not talking pax.
Also the fact that you can probably make an additional 75% the power of the FRS with bolt ons and tune.
I bought a slow handling car before and ended up only becoming bored with it and buying a fast handling car. Don't make the same mistake. STI will handle just as good if not better, especially with mods, and will be more than twice as fast.
I can vouch that they sound pretty damn fast with a nice exhaust on them.
Yes and so does a honda civic. All noise no go.
kanaric wrote:
If you are shopping for STI I wouldn't go for BRZ at all. I wouldn't even consider it.
It would be like buying in 1994 a 240SX over a Supra or Rx7.
one is a racer's car and the other is a boy racer's car, choose wisely
Which is which? I assume the boy racer is the STI because you couldn't afford it. Around where I live everyone with BRZs and FRS are like 16-20 somethings and everyone with newer STIs are 30+ year old contractors working on the air force base or people like that. There are also 2:1 STI to BRZ at the autocross here.
That and everyone is saying the 2015 STI is their best car ever and that it's better handling than the previous EVO. There is not any way I would pick the BRZ over it.
I mainly want a nicer, newer, faster car than my 2006 Miata.
I've always wanted an STi, but I'm not convinced I REALLLLLLLY want to drop $40k on a car.
I drove the BRZ at an autocross. I really enjoyed it even on the Prius tires. The cockpit is just really nice and the power was fine for that sort of situation. If we're just talking about overall driving I'd take the BRZ over an STI.
z31maniac wrote:
I mainly want a nicer, newer, faster car than my 2006 Miata.
I've always wanted an STi, but I'm not convinced I REALLLLLLLY want to drop $40k on a car.
Then buy the FlyinMiata Targa Kit for the 06 Meotter and enjoy more straightline speed and more handling potential than you had before without buying a brand new car. Add the FlyinMiata Super20 Flares and then stuff a set of sticky 255's on lightweight wheels under it and enjoy the extra grip provided. Put the money you'd spend on the interest from a loan in the bank and use that money to pay for track days, autocrosses and other fun car events/weekend trips.
Personally, I really like the Frisby twins except for the that damned Subaru motor. I just don't get warm fuzzies about their reliability long term, especially when power adders are bolted on. The STi's are even worse it seems for longevity (plus the WRX/STi sounds like ass, IMO so they are ruled out immediately) as they are very much hit or miss on whether they will puke ring lands, rods, etc.
To each their own. Personally, I'm looking to trade my 88 Porsche 944 Turbo S for an 06+ Meotter, so I've been doing some research on them lately and I might be a bit biased :)
I'll sell you my '06 Grand Touring, 6spd, 45k miles, Fresh Conti DW 205/45/17s. Like maybe 2 tanks of gas and no Auto-X/track work on them. Also has a Flyin' Miata muffler. I don't really want to drop $12-13k in this car to do that though.
In reply to kanaric:
you couldn't be more incorrect in your assumption, seeing that at the age of 25 I purchased my 05 STi new, and am still referring to it as the boy racer car. When power and vehicle capability compensates for driver ability it's incredibly boy racer to me (look at the boy racer hero car of the GT-R which is most fun when "driven" in their favorite element, a video game console). Where as a gentlemen's racer is something that highlights the drivers ability and is more likely to be seen in competition as one cannot simply "buy a championship", thus the appeal of miatas, but I digress.
I'm in no way doubting the STi's ability and the handling has improved in the last decade, but let's be honest it doesn't improve the driver, is still a bit numb and the EJ25 is absolutely ancient in terms of product lifecycle, in the time that Fuji Heavy Industries has been using it Mitsu has come out with a 4G63 replacement and announced it's scrapping already.
kanaric wrote:
The upgrade potential for a STI is also astronomical compared to the BRZ. Not just power, but handling. In ST classes nobody with a prepped BRZ is going to beat anyone in a WRX let alone a STI unless the WRX/STI drivers are E36 M3. Obviously not talking pax.
Also the fact that you can probably make an additional 75% the power of the FRS with bolt ons and tune.
I bought a slow handling car before and ended up only becoming bored with it and buying a fast handling car. Don't make the same mistake. STI will handle just as good if not better, especially with mods, and will be more than twice as fast.
I can vouch that they sound pretty damn fast with a nice exhaust on them.
Yes and so does a honda civic. All noise no go.
Keep in mind, I do NOT care AT ALL about building a competitive auto-x car. That is not a priority at all.
I'll reiterate, I don't care about building an ST (or any other class) winning car.
My buddy currently has about 200rwhp with a tune, full exhaust and intake on his FR-S. Between the two, I would go twins before an STi/WRX, way more fun to drive and to me look way better.
z31maniac wrote:
I mainly want a nicer, newer, faster car than my 2006 Miata.
That answers the question right there as the Frisbee is most often compared and looked at as a modern hardtop version of a Miata or 240SX. It won't be much faster, but it will reward you in the same ways when behind the wheel. Power gets old and boring as we become accustom to it behind the wheel and eventually want more of it to rekindle our sensations and feelings of adrenaline, it really IS like a drug in that way. Where as handling and balance is always rewarding and it's satisfaction never fades.
z31maniac wrote:
I'll sell you my '06 Grand Touring, 6spd, 45k miles, Fresh Conti DW 205/45/17s. Like maybe 2 tanks of gas and no Auto-X/track work on them. Also has a Flyin' Miata muffler. I don't really want to drop $12-13k in this car to do that though.
Nice car. Unfortunately a bit far for us, unless it is stupid cheap (I've seen some on the West Coast for under 10K already).
Not sure where the $12K is coming from, but it would still be cheaper than the $40K for the new car not too mention the interest you'd have to pay over the life of the loan. Just providing an alternative to going deeper in debt since having a loan on a car you track or race can be a bad thing if anything goes "bang" and you're up a creek.
It's nearly impossible to explain the FR-S / BRZ's merits without driving one. They aren't impressive on paper (or the dyno), but they hit the "sweet" spot for me when driving. They were designed from the ground-up as a visceral driver's car, and they deliver on that promise. The STI is an amazingly capable machine, but for pure driving pleasure, I'll take the frizbee twins every time---- even as I watch the STI blow past / post lower times / etc.
They are very different cars. FR-S / BRZ= scalpel The STI is more of a sledgehammer. Drive both and see what trips your trigger. I'm constantly tempted to go buy an FR-S. Although I like and respect them, I have no desire to own an STI. (if I lived in the snow-belt however, I'd probably be singing a different tune)
turboswede wrote:
z31maniac wrote:
I'll sell you my '06 Grand Touring, 6spd, 45k miles, Fresh Conti DW 205/45/17s. Like maybe 2 tanks of gas and no Auto-X/track work on them. Also has a Flyin' Miata muffler. I don't really want to drop $12-13k in this car to do that though.
Nice car. Unfortunately a bit far for us, unless it is stupid cheap (I've seen some on the West Coast for under 10K already).
Not sure where the $12K is coming from, but it would still be cheaper than the $40K for the new car not too mention the interest you'd have to pay over the life of the loan. Just providing an alternative to going deeper in debt since having a loan on a car you track or race can be a bad thing if anything goes "bang" and you're up a creek.
Nope, not stupid cheap. Market price. But I would like to see a link to a Grand Touring (top trim level with leather, cloth top, BOSE, 6 spd, sport package) in this condition/mileage for under $10k. A base model 5 spd isn't really a fair comparison.
Joe Gearin wrote:
It's nearly impossible to explain the FR-S / BRZ's merits without driving one. They aren't impressive on paper (or the dyno), but they hit the "sweet" spot for me when driving. They were designed from the ground-up as a visceral driver's car, and they deliver on that promise. The STI is an amazingly capable machine, but for pure driving pleasure, I'll take the frizbee twins every time---- even as I watch the STI blow past / post lower times / etc.
They are very different cars. FR-S / BRZ= scalpel The STI is more of a sledgehammer. Drive both and see what trips your trigger. I'm constantly tempted to go buy an FR-S. Although I like and respect them, I have no desire to own an STI. (if I lived in the snow-belt however, I'd probably be singing a different tune)
I suspect it would be exactly what I want.
Hmmmmmmm
Ian F
UltimaDork
8/1/14 12:22 p.m.
captdownshift wrote:
In reply to Joe Gearin:
nailed it.
...and that's why he writes for the Magazine and we post on forums. 
z31maniac wrote:
Joe Gearin wrote:
It's nearly impossible to explain the FR-S / BRZ's merits without driving one. They aren't impressive on paper (or the dyno), but they hit the "sweet" spot for me when driving. They were designed from the ground-up as a visceral driver's car, and they deliver on that promise. The STI is an amazingly capable machine, but for pure driving pleasure, I'll take the frizbee twins every time---- even as I watch the STI blow past / post lower times / etc.
They are very different cars. FR-S / BRZ= scalpel The STI is more of a sledgehammer. Drive both and see what trips your trigger. I'm constantly tempted to go buy an FR-S. Although I like and respect them, I have no desire to own an STI. (if I lived in the snow-belt however, I'd probably be singing a different tune)
I suspect it would be exactly what I want.
Hmmmmmmm
You and i are chasing the same things at this point... but on a smaller budget in my case.
A brand new NC or the BRZ/FRS is really the only thing that makes sense buying brand new.
In my case, i'm "settling" for either an NB1 or an MR-S.
z31maniac wrote:
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:
Swank Force One wrote:
He's saying that after tune and breathing things, it'll make 40-50whp more than an E30.
Doh. I are reading comprehension challenged today.
No biggie, but from what I'm reading these engines are really responding well to bolt-ons/tune.
Like in the 30-35whp range, and you can get even more with E85. I wouldn't go E85 unless there was a fuel sensor installed so the computer could seamlessly switch between regular gas and E85 and all the mixes in-between.
190whp, get some weight out of the car, sticky tires, proper suspension...........I suspect it would be quite the beast on the track and in the parking lot.
Problem being once you do all those mods you'll be in a class where you won't be at all competitive for autocross.
Joe Gearin wrote:
It's nearly impossible to explain the FR-S / BRZ's merits without driving one. They aren't impressive on paper (or the dyno), but they hit the "sweet" spot for me when driving. They were designed from the ground-up as a visceral driver's car, and they deliver on that promise. The STI is an amazingly capable machine, but for pure driving pleasure, I'll take the frizbee twins every time---- even as I watch the STI blow past / post lower times / etc.
As a counter point, bah humbug on the Frizbee twins. I am sorry in stock trim they are just to underpowered for the cost and they lack enough power even for daily driving in California at least, even using them as a momentum car they are not really that rewarding to drive for me. The STI requires a bit more focus to drive really fast and it can bite you in the butt if you are not careful, and it is a significantly more complete package as far as a DD goes. It has real back seats, the truck is vey spacious, the resale value is amazing if you leave them stock or close to stock and in bad weather of any type I would be happier in it then the Frizbee's.
DaveEstey wrote:
z31maniac wrote:
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:
Swank Force One wrote:
He's saying that after tune and breathing things, it'll make 40-50whp more than an E30.
Doh. I are reading comprehension challenged today.
No biggie, but from what I'm reading these engines are really responding well to bolt-ons/tune.
Like in the 30-35whp range, and you can get even more with E85. I wouldn't go E85 unless there was a fuel sensor installed so the computer could seamlessly switch between regular gas and E85 and all the mixes in-between.
190whp, get some weight out of the car, sticky tires, proper suspension...........I suspect it would be quite the beast on the track and in the parking lot.
Problem being once you do all those mods you'll be in a class where you won't be at all competitive for autocross.
Please refer to a post toward the top of this page.
I don't care about competitive Auto-X classing.
z31maniac wrote:
turboswede wrote:
z31maniac wrote:
I'll sell you my '06 Grand Touring, 6spd, 45k miles, Fresh Conti DW 205/45/17s. Like maybe 2 tanks of gas and no Auto-X/track work on them. Also has a Flyin' Miata muffler. I don't really want to drop $12-13k in this car to do that though.
Nice car. Unfortunately a bit far for us, unless it is stupid cheap (I've seen some on the West Coast for under 10K already).
Not sure where the $12K is coming from, but it would still be cheaper than the $40K for the new car not too mention the interest you'd have to pay over the life of the loan. Just providing an alternative to going deeper in debt since having a loan on a car you track or race can be a bad thing if anything goes "bang" and you're up a creek.
Nope, not stupid cheap. Market price. But I would like to see a link to a Grand Touring (top trim level with leather, cloth top, BOSE, 6 spd, sport package) in this condition/mileage for under $10k. A base model 5 spd isn't really a fair comparison.
Considering we're looking for one with the 6-speed auto, I suspect that has much to do with the prices I'm seeing. Plus Miata's and verts can be cheaper in California since they don't have quite the premium they do in other places where they are less common.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ctd/4595126557.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/cto/4587679833.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ctd/4563818867.html
Certainly there are some with salvage titles that can be had cheaper, but dealing with an out of state salvage title could be troublesome, not too mention the chances that it was rebuilt poorly, etc.
Too bad you're looking for the Auto. I'd let this one go for $11k
I've always wanted an STi, but I'm not convinced I REALLLLLLLY want to drop $40k on a car.
At least consider a "standard" WRX. It can be 25% less cost wise and about 10% less performance wise of an STi. I have had STis and loved them but if you are looking to spend a little less it's a good option. You should be able to get a nicely optioned one out the door for around 30K if you shop around.
I'm gonna side with Joe on this one too. If you've driven both, its difficult not to go with the twins. And I've driven a 700hp STI and would still take a twin. Everything about it feels right, where the STI, although gut wrenching fast, felt like a gut wrenching fast appliance. To some people this is enough, but to me, I want to feel the car and experience it, and this is where the twins excel.
Funny thing, I always read how underpowered they are, but only a few years ago they'd be near the supercar heap. A few of you may want to avoid any nearby time machines to see how badly we had it back in the day! 
z31maniac wrote:
Please refer to a post toward the top of this page.
I don't care about competitive Auto-X classing.
Yeah, didn't see that.
Not sure I'd want to pour money into a car to make it faster/less comfortable/less usable and not have it be for a reason.
Not that I'm close enough for this to be reasonable, but in an attempt to persuade you further, I'm looking to sell my 2013 FR-S. Unless you're morally opposed to the Scion badge, which I can understand.
Also - I've never had a really fast car, but in my experience driving it daily for nearly a year, the car is an absolute blast. On ramps are my new favorite thing. Doesn't do too bad in the winter either, provided you have a dedicated set of snows.
