I'll have to have a look at the MGB uprights again, but I don't think it would be THAT easy to swap in Miata uprights. Heck, unless you're going to move control arm mounting points, seems to me that would be a major downgrade.
Curse you guys. Now I'm looking at that "parts car" all different. Does it want a Miata engine once Nigel Brimstone is finished with his V8?
... NO it wants ME to put a 3.8L in it Keith... Dayum
oldeskewltoy wrote: you might want to look into a Toyota 4AGE.... 112hp stock , but with room to build it to 160 and still keep it full street...
160hp from a "street" 4age? You'll either need a turbo, or start with a 20v version. Unfortunately, you're not going to get 50% more power from that engine naturally aspirated without a LOT of money and some trade-offs in driveability. It was a good engine for it's time, but there are better options for a swap imho.
Sorry, kinda off topic
160hp from a "street" 4age? You'll either need a turbo, or start with a 20v version.
You don't need 20V, nor do you want 20V(parts sourcing). Stock 4AG ran 9.4 compression. A healthy compression bump(close to 11 to 1), a set of proper camshafts(264 duration should do it), a properly ported head, and MANAGEMENT.
Unfortunately, you're not going to get 50% more power from that engine naturally aspirated without a LOT of money and some trade-offs in driveability. It was a good engine for it's time, but there are better options for a swap imho. Sorry, kinda off topic
I've recently had one assembled by Loynings Engine Service... expected wheel hp close to 150, and fully emissions compliant!! The emissions complaince will come from the engine management, it'll be running a sequential injection with a wasted spark ignition, taking cues from a fast acting wideband (entire engine management by FJO Racing) - total cost for engine and management under $6k
oldeskewltoy wrote: I've recently had one assembled by Loynings Engine Service... expected wheel hp close to 150, and fully emissions compliant!! The emissions complaince will come from the engine management, it'll be running a sequential injection with a wasted spark ignition, taking cues from a fast acting wideband (entire engine management by FJO Racing) - total cost for engine and management under $6k
My curiosity is piqued, but I'm not convinced yet. Expected hp is quite different from real world numbers, no offense intended. I would love to see a dyno and build sheet when it is done if you get the chance. I know for a fact that the mk1 guys over on the mr2oc forum would love to get those numbers from their 4age's. So far no one has got anywhere near 150hp from modding that engine. Of course, no one has been willing to spend $6K either. For that kind of money most people swap in a 3SGTE (or the supercharged 4agze for a lot less than that). Only the racers who are required to keep the 4age for their class requirements seem to build that engine, and they're not so forthcoming with their build details for good reason.
I'll pm you my email so we don't get this thread any more OT than we already have. I'm not so much asking you to prove anything to me, as I am genuinely curious. I have a 4age that I may have to keep for the class I'd prefer to stay in, so I would like to see what's possible.
The 4AGE is broadly similar to the Miata engine. I have a "full street" 1.6 Miata engine that makes 148 at the wheels on 91 octane pump gas. I've even had it through an emissions test in a previous incarnation without trouble. So I'd call that plausible. 160, I'm not so sure.
I'm not arguing it isn't possible to get that power out of a 1.6l dohc inline 4. However, I am arguing that it isn't cost-effective to use the 4age as a cross-manufacturer swap, where you have to worry about motor mounts, axles, wiring, etc. There are a lot of more modern, higher hp engines to choose from if you're going to go through all that trouble imho. 
Matt B wrote: I'm not arguing it isn't possible to get that power out of a 1.6l dohc inline 4. However, I am arguing that it isn't cost-effective to use the 4age as a cross-manufacturer swap, where you have to worry about motor mounts, axles, wiring, etc. There are a lot of more modern, higher hp engines to choose from if you're going to go through all that trouble imho.
It's the $6k part inc management that get's me. Over on Miata.net there are a couple of nice theoretical engine builds being discussed and Keith is part of those. $10k is a frequently banded about figure. I'd like to see the every last nut bolt and resistor parts list coming in at $6k for a 160rwhp motor.
The $10k figure is pulled out of people's butts because that's the price of the most expensive pre-built engine on the FM website (or a competitive Spec Miata motor!) and it's a nice round number.
My hot little 1.6 would come in at right around $3500 in parts (pistons, rods, cams, valve springs and an engine rebuild kit). Add in, say, $1500 for the throttle bodies and $400-ish for a pre-built header. Then choose your engine management. You'll also need to add in machine shop time to bore the block and do whatever you can't do on the head. If you go with a few lesser parts such as different rods instead of Carrillos then $6k total is plausible assuming you have the skills and ability.
And remember there are a lot of 300hp engines that only make 175hp.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: It's the $6k part inc management that get's me. Over on Miata.net there are a couple of nice theoretical engine builds being discussed and Keith is part of those. $10k is a frequently banded about figure. I'd like to see the every last nut bolt and resistor parts list coming in at $6k for a 160rwhp motor.
The short block cost me $100 - smallport shortblock the head cost me $150 - including fuel rail the largeport internals(smaller internals) - FREE The pistons cost me $260 rings $120 the lightened wrist pins cost $120 (from 89 grams to 63 grams) the flywheel $200 Loynings(includes all other internal parts) $2500 new oil and water pumps $170 engine rebuild kit $210 4 RC injectors - $330
complete engine management with ALL NEW sensors - air temp, fuel pressure, oil pressure, oil temp (the previous 3 can shut down the engine if out of parameters), crank sensor, cam angle sensor, AND a customized wiring harness!. The system uses wasted spark ignition along with sequential injection, and a wide band monitoring it all - all inclusive $2700
Pardon me... closer to $6,860 - but that does pretty much include everything....
4AGEs don't need Carillo rods... unless you head north of 9.5k rpm(my redline will be 8600)
the only NONE OEM Toyota part inside this engine, besides camshafts, will be the wrist pins. EVERYTHING else inside this engine carries a standard Toyota part number - albeit the pistons were a special order from Singapore!
Oh.... I don't believe I claimed 160 whp, my claim is 160hp.... (expecting about 140-145 @ the wheels)
now although this isn't what some of you thought.... it is still "street", so emissions compliant.
MattB- I'd agree that the 1.6/1.8l miata/4age engines aren't probably worth going through the trouble to swap into heavier cars. I put the 4age 20v in my MG Midget, but we're talking 1500 or so pounds. It goes well, but I don't think I'd go to the trouble in a heavier car like the B.
I believe MGB's come in at closer to 2000-2200lbs where it isn't really going to give that large of a performance boost over the standard engine to justify the work involved. I think you'd get about the same hp increase with a supercharger kit on the stock B. Probably less money for the s'charger as well.
For a B or BGT- I'd look at some of the v6 kits out there- I'm not sure which variant they use, but if it's some of the pontiac supercharged 6's (see Brunton SuperStalkers) then you're in business. You could also look at a 5.0 ford, or again, if crazy, the LS series, which I'm currently infatuated with.
You all are forgetting the BOP/Rover aluminum V8 with a late Rover 5-speed it's lighter than the original lump. Also, since the factory made about 2500 of them, all the parts are available & pre- engineered for the swap. Plus you can argue that you should be classed a "Street Prepared " rather than "Modified".
Ya know, a SC 3800 would make for a very quick B.
Keith, swapping in Miata uprights wouldn't be that hard. I've already done the eyeballing. 
The later 1.8 brakes could easily be used since B's have 14" wheels stock, unlike the Spits where 13's are the best fit in the stock fenders. The 3 piece MGB lower C/A's would be easier to modify than, say, the Spitfire and Jensen Healey C/A's I've done. Heck, it's even easier to make tubular C/A's for a B than a Spitfire.
Tha major pluses: you lose the kingpin and the rubber bushings in the upper kingpin trunnion setup and replace it with ball joints, you can easily upgrade to tube shocks while you are doing it, you get vented front rotors and a super common bolt circle and you can build in camber adjustability. BTW, I'd do that with threaded links in the upper control arms because that means you can add caster adjustment as well. It might be necessary to lower the steering rack for bump steer issues but that would be pretty easy on a B. Then again, the B has a very similar rack location setup to a J-H and I didn't have to lower my rack, it worked out like the guys in Hiroshima and West Bromwich had a direct connection.
Is the geometry of the Miata spindle that close to the MG? Surprising.
I've driven a Rover-engined MGB GT. It's the car that started me thinking about V8-powered ones. But I don't care much for the engine. The car I drove made a stupendous noise but I think a stock 1.6 Miata could have taken it in a straight line. Then the Miata would have slaughtered it under braking and cornering, and run off into the distance laughing. In the UK where the engines are more common and the SBC is only a legend, it makes sense. Over in North America, it's a difficult one to justify.
According to the graphs on Moss Motors' website, you'd probably be pretty close on performance between a bone stock Miata 1.6 and a supercharged MGB motor. Of course, you can make more out of the Miata engine and the B motor is still dealing with blow-through carbs, but it'll be easier than a swap.
The Rover V8 is still around. It just got more cubic inches and fuel injected. Search craigslist for Range Rover and Land Rover engines. The hot rod market is kind of slim though.
Should I buy this one? It's local and really cheap...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1974-MG-B-GT-FASTBACK-PROJECT-CAR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZalgoQ3dLVIQ26ituQ3dUCIQ26otnQ3d2Q26psQ3d6QQ_trksidZp3286Q2em7QQcategoryZ6783QQihZ017QQitemZ270477527823
M030:
NO.
Keith wrote: Is the geometry of the Miata spindle that close to the MG? Surprising.
The Miata is supposed to be 8.72 degrees KPI, the MGB 8 degrees even. Pretty dang close. For contrast, the Spitfire is 6.75 degrees, the Jensen Healey 7.5 degrees (near as I can figure, that's based on measurements not factory specs). From what I learned fiddling with tire temps, the J-H is going to require a lot less static negative camber (~ 3/4 deg) than the Spitfire (~ 1 1/2 deg) needed to accomplish the same even tire loading.
Jensenman wrote:Keith wrote: Is the geometry of the Miata spindle that close to the MG? Surprising.The Miata is supposed to be 8.72 degrees KPI, the MGB 8 degrees even. Pretty dang close. For contrast, the Spitfire is 6.75 degrees, the Jensen Healey 7.5 degrees (near as I can figure, that's based on measurements not factory specs). From what I learned fiddling with tire temps, the J-H is going to require a lot less static negative camber (~ 3/4 deg) than the Spitfire (~ 1 1/2 deg) needed to accomplish the same even tire loading.
That is kinda weird. I have always heard that on rear wheel drive you don't want more then 8 degrees of Kingpin angle and you just have to deal with the resulting scrub radius.
I have always wanted a turbo rotary in a MGB. But then again I am weird and for some reason, would never keep a rotary in RX-7 but want to put them in old British cars.
I'm joining this discussion pretty late, but here are some thoughts from the guy who's got a Miata-powered MGB/GT (I built/wrote about the one from GRM a few years back).
I didn't do the swap for pure power--as it's been said, a V6 or V8 does that better and honestly more easily. I did the swap for a good balance of power, drivability, an easy, good 5 speed conversion, and the "spirit of the car." I like 4 bangers, especially DOHC ones, and that's part of the equasion, too.
Regarding power, I've got dyno graphs on the Eclectic Motorworks website that show the details, but here's a summary: A mild supercharged MGB engine can make about the same power/torque as a mild Buick/Olds/Rover V8. A stock Miata engine makes about the same power/torque as a stock MGB engine until you hit about 3500 RPM. Above that, the Miata keeps going up at a faster rate and to higher RPMs (7200 vs 6000) than the MGB. So if you like to buzz your motor, the Miata swap is a great replacement for the MGB. If you like torque, the supercharger or V6 or V8 are more like it. I don't have V6 charts up, but I've dynoed a few V6 MGBs and seen ranges of 80HP at the wheels to 240 or so--just like V8s, honestly. The graphs are at http://www.eclecticmotorworks.com/miatab6.html
The main reason I did my swap was for the fuel injection and the 5 speed. The car is much faster--0-60 in about 7.8 seconds compared to about 12-13 in stock form. This is mainly due to the fact that there's power up high and I can buzz the engine. Note that it's pretty much on par with a Miata in acceleration, which makes sense (same drivetrain, similar weight). Could it be faster? Sure, but it's fast enough for my goals. I've got faster classics, but their drivability isn't as good.
I get lots of comments and lots of people asking why I did what I did (and why I didn't do a V6/V8). I always say it's about context: I liked the DOHC 4 banger, the FI, the five speed, and the challenge of making it look like it came that way from the factory. For other people, a different swap may be better, but I picked the one that I wanted to do.
So my parting comments are to really think about goals, not what's "best."
--Carl
Guess I'll jump in here with my 2cents
I have a 4ag installed in my 1970 MGBGT. My reasons for the I-4 swap were like Carls but I wanted the simplicity of carbs as opposed to FI wiring.
The 4AG is one of the few I-4 engines that will fit in the engine bay without moving the rad or cutting the fire wall. With regards to Brusts comments about the weight of the B, bear in mind that a 4AG engine trans combo weighs a couple of hundred pounds less than the BMC 1.8. I'm also installing a narrowed Toyota AE86 rear axle (4:30 LSD, disc brakes and panhard link) that weighs in much less than the Salisbury stock unit. This will get my rpms up where they work best. My engine is a high comp bottom with big port top. 40mm Dellortos,HKS 8 port intake HKS 264 cams EDIS ign w/ megajolt controll and big tube stainless header.(no where near $6k)
I do alot of hunting deals and most of my own work so i keep costs way down.
The hi-comp 4AG is rated 140hp stock.
So 150 should .be EZ but I have no dyno data so I'll leave that dog lying.
The end result is what I had hoped for, a great looking classic with improved performance handling and reliability.
I do take issue with the negative views from those who might do well to drive before having such strong opinions. Have a look at this link for some older pics.
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=72960
ZOOM ZOOM
Uh-oh -- I found this one one Kijiji. I'm calling today . . .
sorry for the thread jack, but I have a 4AGE comment. I know for a fact that at least one MR2 is putting out over 150hp to the wheels normally aspirated, but it wasn't cheap. The motor is VERY stout. Of course that was when it was tired. I'm now told it's numbers are higher, but haven't seen a sheet nor do I know the final figures. It's Hoelscher's DP car. It's been a few years since I've driven it, but even with the tired motor it would have pulled most V8 cars I've driven up to a point.
The point is, you can build big numbers into most engines, but what will they be like when they are finished? And at what price? The 4AGE is one of my favorite motors, and it's basically a Cosworth copy, but you have to pick the motor depending upon what the uses for the car are. I've owned tons of MR2s and Miatas, but I have to say the 4AGE is simply the sweeter motor, but the choices for aftermarket pieces are much smaller and more expensive.
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