Modern factory "track" cars and safety equipment

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

SCCA allows completely stock cars on their track day events. Knowing how safety conscience they are, I think that putting any higher standard as the price of entry  will be an obstacle to the increase participation needed to keep sports car racing viable.  

Can stuff be added? Sure but let’s make sure they are properly addicted to our hobby first.  Comments about first hit free from drug dealers comes to mind about now.  ( silly grin )

Yes, I know that. But the point of his post was asking about safety equipment in a newer car. 

And I relayed what I would do. After getting hurt at the track when I still rode sportbikes, I take safety very seriously. Even my 1.6 Miata, I didn't go to the track until it had a rollbar, FIA fixed-back seats, and harnesses. That's me and my acceptable level of risk.

My local track will let you take a convertible out on Hoosiers, with no rollbar, if that's what you feel comfortable doing. I would never, but that is up to each person to determine what level of risk they can handle.

That’s you. You have history, but what about the guy who wants to dip his toe in the water first?  Are you saying he should follow your example to try his 4 door Honda automatic and convert it to a race car first?  Before he even knows if he likes racing?  

The whole purpose of these events is to get more people on the track.  Some will want to try wheel to wheel racing. 

Some won’t and stay happy doing events like this  or Autocross, whatever.  

But the more people who show up the lower the cost per person and the more affordable.  

Without a whole bunch of new people racing costs will spiral out of reach.  

You get new people not by raising the cost of entry, but lowering it. Make a race track something people see as accessible.   

frenchyd said:

1. In reply to dclafleur :
2.  Events like these are designed to feed the need, the need for speed . (“Top Gun”) Entry level to go wheel to wheel racing  is well over what most people are willing to spend  to find out if they like it or not.  
3.  Cars can get wrecked and that’s the price you pay if your not capable of handling your car. But that doesn’t mean the drivers are dead or even seriously injured. 

 Modern cars will  absorb a lot of damage before passing it on to the driver.  Add the required helmet and the point where a driver is seriously injured  is pretty high.  High enough that a conservative group like SCCA is ready to accept the risk.  

 

To play devil's advocate for a moment, modern cars are designed to be safe but only up to a certain speed.  Crash tests are at like 35 or 40 mph, and if you hit a wall at 80 then all bets are off.  Protecting occupants from higher speed crashes like that isn't practical with the kinds of techniques for street cars, and most drivers see an accident coming and get on the brakes, so even if they were going freeway speeds before the crash they've scrubbed off a lot of the energy before the impact.  Put that same car on a track at 120+ and the balance changes.

But yes, broadly speaking events like TNIA are designed to have a low cost of entry for people relatively new to the track.  New drivers are usually (but not always!) going to be driving a lot further from the edge than an experienced one.

frenchyd said:

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

SCCA allows completely stock cars on their track day events. Knowing how safety conscience they are, I think that putting any higher standard as the price of entry  will be an obstacle to the increase participation needed to keep sports car racing viable.  

Can stuff be added? Sure but let’s make sure they are properly addicted to our hobby first.  Comments about first hit free from drug dealers comes to mind about now.  ( silly grin )

Yes, I know that. But the point of his post was asking about safety equipment in a newer car. 

And I relayed what I would do. After getting hurt at the track when I still rode sportbikes, I take safety very seriously. Even my 1.6 Miata, I didn't go to the track until it had a rollbar, FIA fixed-back seats, and harnesses. That's me and my acceptable level of risk.

My local track will let you take a convertible out on Hoosiers, with no rollbar, if that's what you feel comfortable doing. I would never, but that is up to each person to determine what level of risk they can handle.

That’s you. You have history, but what about the guy who wants to dip his toe in the water first?  Are you saying he should follow your example to try his 4 door Honda automatic and convert it to a race car first?  Before he even knows if he likes racing?  

The whole purpose of these events is to get more people on the track.  Some will want to try wheel to wheel racing. 

Some won’t and stay happy doing events like this  or Autocross, whatever.  

But the more people who show up the lower the cost per person and the more affordable.  

Without a whole bunch of new people racing costs will spiral out of reach.  

You get new people not by raising the cost of entry, but lowering it. Make a race track something people see as accessible.   

Your ability to purposefully misconstrue things is truly amazing. In the post you quoted, I literally said, "I relayed what I would do." And then also said it's up to each individual to determine what level of risk they are comfortable with, as others have said in this same thread. 

If you read the original post, the person asking the question isn't a new guy. He already has track experience in a dedicated track car. 

So I'm not really sure what point you're attempting to make by bringing up "cost of entry," when OP is literally talking about taking $45k+ cars to the track. 

z31maniac said:

STM317 said:

I'm no track rat, but is there any truth to this older article?

It seems logical to me that adding a bar or cage into a modern street car could require removing pillar/side curtain airbags. And then your head is free to bang around on that new bar in the event of an accident. On track, you'd have a helmet on to protect your head from those impacts, but if you were in a crash on the street you or your passengers won't be wearing helmets. It's at least worth discussing I think even if it's not much of a concern.

This is why it's important to talk about specific items and use the appropriate terms. There is a large difference between a 4-pt roll bar and a cage.

In my Miata, I had no qualms about driving it on the street with the roll bar, seats, harnesses. If my head hit to the roll bar, that would have meant the impact was great enough to make the FIA-cert seat fail and somehow move from behind my head to allow a hit to the roll bar. IE, roll bar or not wouldn't have mattered. 

A roll cage on the other hand, adds the tube across the top of the door frame and down the A-pillar. A sideways hit could easily send your head into that. And remember that "rollbar padding" is still meant for a helmet and not your bare head.

Good points and clarification. But I can imagine a 4pt roll bar potentially affecting the way that side curtain airbags would deploy too. Hopefully they're designed not to, but I have to wonder if the aftermarket company actually considered that when designing their part. Not good for a street vehicle if that's the case, but maybe I'm off base.

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

SCCA allows completely stock cars on their track day events. Knowing how safety conscience they are, I think that putting any higher standard as the price of entry  will be an obstacle to the increase participation needed to keep sports car racing viable.  

Can stuff be added? Sure but let’s make sure they are properly addicted to our hobby first.  Comments about first hit free from drug dealers comes to mind about now.  ( silly grin )

Yes, I know that. But the point of his post was asking about safety equipment in a newer car. 

And I relayed what I would do. After getting hurt at the track when I still rode sportbikes, I take safety very seriously. Even my 1.6 Miata, I didn't go to the track until it had a rollbar, FIA fixed-back seats, and harnesses. That's me and my acceptable level of risk.

My local track will let you take a convertible out on Hoosiers, with no rollbar, if that's what you feel comfortable doing. I would never, but that is up to each person to determine what level of risk they can handle.

That’s you. You have history, but what about the guy who wants to dip his toe in the water first?  Are you saying he should follow your example to try his 4 door Honda automatic and convert it to a race car first?  Before he even knows if he likes racing?  

The whole purpose of these events is to get more people on the track.  Some will want to try wheel to wheel racing. 

Some won’t and stay happy doing events like this  or Autocross, whatever.  

But the more people who show up the lower the cost per person and the more affordable.  

Without a whole bunch of new people racing costs will spiral out of reach.  

You get new people not by raising the cost of entry, but lowering it. Make a race track something people see as accessible.   

Your ability to purposefully misconstrue things is truly amazing. In the post you quoted, I literally said, "I relayed what I would do." And then also said it's up to each individual to determine what level of risk they are comfortable with, as others have said in this same thread. 

If you read the original post, the person asking the question isn't a new guy. He already has track experience in a dedicated track car. 

So I'm not really sure what point you're attempting to make by bringing up "cost of entry," when OP is literally talking about taking $45k+ cars to the track. 

The OP is not the only one who has read this.  Many have and will read without posting.  The whole reason track days exist is to attract new drivers. People do not go expecting to write off their cars. So $45k or Whatever that’s not an expense. A roll cage, HANS device, racing seat, seat belts etc etc etc etc  is. 

When we founded the Vintage race club here in Minnesota, exactly what you said was done by several drivers. The rest of us encouraged others to try it.  Explaining that if they didn’t like it or thought it too risky etc they could simply pull into the pits whenever They wanted. That they controlled their car. They should go only as fast as they felt comfortable. 

We went from 6 guys too almost 200 in a few years with 45-60 registering to race.  

OP here.  Yes, a lot of this discussion is up to one's own personal comfort with risk.  Everyone will have a different view.

I started the way almost everyone does; stock car, street tires, three point seatbelt and helmet.  In my case I had no airbags, no ABS, no traction control, etc.  I rode with instructors in novice for as long as they would let me; had a couple off's and a couple spins.  In retrospect I was going pretty slow back then and it probably wasn't as dangerous as it seemed; however, it was scary as hell and made me take the safety aspect much more seriously.  Stuff happens and it would be a really dumb way to orphan my kids.

I've now been driving at the track for three years, and I've done 16 events and 67 sessions.  I try to do an event once a month if possible.  I typically run in the intermediate groups, and my lap times are approaching typical Spec Miata times.  My turbo/upgraded car should be quite a bit faster than a SM, but they're running Hoosiers and I'm running RS-4's so we'll call it roughly even.  I have neither the desire nor the time to race, but I do want to keep improving my skills and that means testing my limits/courage at times.

I can easily believe that a new stock Corvette or Mustang would be much, much safer in a crash than my 25 year old Miata was when it was stock.  Those cars are also capable of much more performance though, which raises the stakes considerably.  My OP was posted with the hope that there was some practical middle ground on the safety setup with a newer/more expensive car, but in truth it seems like more of an all-or-nothing proposition and I'm probably better off just driving the wheels off of my Miata.  I admit that I'm jealous when I give a point by to a lesser driver in a SS 1LE that is totally within my reach, but I'm also probably not comfortable taking the risks that that person is taking.  I'm also going to be way less sad if I go off the track and damage the vehicle.

For a newer car that doesn't have the performance increase to more than negate its safety increase, just look at the cheaper and lower-powered options, like a Toyobaru, ND Miata, FiST/FoST, Veloster N, etc.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I was going to suggest a 350Z with LSD

ShinnyGroove said:

OP here.  Yes, a lot of this discussion is up to one's own personal comfort with risk.  Everyone will have a different view.

I started the way almost everyone does; stock car, street tires, three point seatbelt and helmet.  In my case I had no airbags, no ABS, no traction control, etc

I've now been driving at the track for three years, and I've done 16 events and 67 sessions.  I try to do an event once a month if possible.  I typically run in the intermediate groups,  [... ..] but I do want to keep improving my skills and that means testing my limits/courage at times.

My OP was posted with the hope that there was some practical middle ground on the safety setup with a newer/more expensive car, but in truth it seems like more of an all-or-nothing proposition and I'm probably better off just driving the wheels off of my Miata.  I admit that I'm jealous when I give a point by to a lesser driver in a SS 1LE that is totally within my reach, but I'm also probably not comfortable taking the risks that that person is taking.  I'm also going to be way less sad if I go off the track and damage the vehicle.

ShinnyGroove said:

I'm pretty impressed with some of the new cars I see at track days; the GT350, Camaro SS 1LE, Z06, Cayman S, etc.  They seem to be cars that can be comfortable daily drivers, and still kick a bunch of ass at the track without too many headaches.  I can see myself stepping up to something nicer in the next few years.

My question is this.  Most of them have "sport" seats with passthroughs for shoulder harness straps, but aren't too big of a PITA for daily duty.  What I don't see is harness bars or mounting points for sub straps.  The guys I see driving them at the track seem comfortable with the stock 3 point seatbelts, but can't see myself doing 160mph down the back straight at Road Atlanta in a Vette with a stock 3 point when I'm used to doing 120mph in a Miata with full safety.  What are the options here?  Is it possible to install "real" safety with those stock seats, or do you need to rip them out and go to a full safety setup, and accept the compromises to comfort/practicality for daily driver duty?

 

My father would read/listen to that, and then tell you that you're asking the wrong question.  Which I think Gameboy and I have heard thanks to your most recent post.  Really, it sounds like your asking two questions:

"How are people able to drive $45k 450+hp cars on track with OEM safety and 3-point belts?"    Answer:  Easy, they're not thinking about the risk of crashing, or their ego is fooling themselves into thinking they're too good to crash, or they have thought about it and don't care.  This is clearly not you, you should not buy one of these cars, and if you do, you should not take it on track for anything other than parade laps.

the other question is:

"What kind of intermediate step can I take so I don't have to give as many point-bys, and have more fun on track and develop my skills?"
Answer:  Get a slightly newer, probably RWD car (Twins, NC Miata, or 350Z) and put in your fixed seat, and half cage in the back, and your harness.  You will be going faster, and your risk profile will be... well similar to before... since the increased speed means the on-track risks are inherently higher than a '94 (?) miata.

at least, that's the way I see it.  ymmv, caveat emptor/lector, etc.

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I was going to suggest a 350Z with LSD

A 370Z is technically a better car...once you get into it by walking backwards

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

ShinnyGroove said:

OP here.  Yes, a lot of this discussion is up to one's own personal comfort with risk.  Everyone will have a different view.

I started the way almost everyone does; stock car, street tires, three point seatbelt and helmet.  In my case I had no airbags, no ABS, no traction control, etc

I've now been driving at the track for three years, and I've done 16 events and 67 sessions.  I try to do an event once a month if possible.  I typically run in the intermediate groups,  [... ..] but I do want to keep improving my skills and that means testing my limits/courage at times.

My OP was posted with the hope that there was some practical middle ground on the safety setup with a newer/more expensive car, but in truth it seems like more of an all-or-nothing proposition and I'm probably better off just driving the wheels off of my Miata.  I admit that I'm jealous when I give a point by to a lesser driver in a SS 1LE that is totally within my reach, but I'm also probably not comfortable taking the risks that that person is taking.  I'm also going to be way less sad if I go off the track and damage the vehicle.

ShinnyGroove said:

I'm pretty impressed with some of the new cars I see at track days; the GT350, Camaro SS 1LE, Z06, Cayman S, etc.  They seem to be cars that can be comfortable daily drivers, and still kick a bunch of ass at the track without too many headaches.  I can see myself stepping up to something nicer in the next few years.

My question is this.  Most of them have "sport" seats with passthroughs for shoulder harness straps, but aren't too big of a PITA for daily duty.  What I don't see is harness bars or mounting points for sub straps.  The guys I see driving them at the track seem comfortable with the stock 3 point seatbelts, but can't see myself doing 160mph down the back straight at Road Atlanta in a Vette with a stock 3 point when I'm used to doing 120mph in a Miata with full safety.  What are the options here?  Is it possible to install "real" safety with those stock seats, or do you need to rip them out and go to a full safety setup, and accept the compromises to comfort/practicality for daily driver duty?

 

My father would read/listen to that, and then tell you that you're asking the wrong question.  Which I think Gameboy and I have heard thanks to your most recent post.  Really, it sounds like your asking two questions:

"How are people able to drive $45k 450+hp cars on track with OEM safety and 3-point belts?"    Answer:  Easy, they're not thinking about the risk of crashing, or their ego is fooling themselves into thinking they're too good to crash, or they have thought about it and don't care.  This is clearly not you, you should not buy one of these cars, and if you do, you should not take it on track for anything other than parade laps.

the other question is:

"What kind of intermediate step can I take so I don't have to give as many point-bys, and have more fun on track and develop my skills?"
Answer:  Get a slightly newer, probably RWD car (Twins, NC Miata, or 350Z) and put in your fixed seat, and half cage in the back, and your harness.  You will be going faster, and your risk profile will be... well similar to before... since the increased speed means the on-track risks are inherently higher than a '94 (?) miata.

at least, that's the way I see it.  ymmv, caveat emptor/lector, etc.

 

One of the twins, an NC or ND Miata is unlikely to be faster than his current turbocharged Miata. Which he stated is close to SM times on street tires. 

In reply to z31maniac :

yeah, I had that thought after posting.  Should we assume this is a '94 1.8 turbo... 6psi?

I've thought about this a bunch and done pretty much all the steps.  Taken my street car out with just the stock safety equipment installed, street car with Schroth quick fit 4 point harnesses (as discussed earlier in this thread), welded rollbar, race seats, FIA fixed back seat and HANS. 

Modern cars (even ones not so modern like my '03 996 Turbo) are capable of insane speeds on track, my 911 easily hit 140mph on the back straight of HPR without me trying, that was me driving 5/10ths.  That amount of speed, personally, makes me uncomfortable unless I have a rollbar/seats/harnesses/HANS.  Others don't seem to blink at that situation.

Regardless of what Obiodan says in his thread, PCA will NOT allow a 4 point belt in the car at all, with the exception of certain Schroth "quick fit" belts and any 5-6 point harness isn't allowed without either a rollbar/cage or harness bar.  I've confirmed this with PCA safety lead.  So that kinda constricts the field of what you can do, as I personally think harness bars aren't a safe way to go on the track.

So it's either stock 3 points, or pretty much all the way.  The schroth quick fits give a false sense of security I think, as they make you feel safe since you're not getting flung around the cabin/seat but don't really help you anymore than the stock belt in the event of a crash.

This is why I've decided to just auto-x the 911.  I refuse to put in a rollbar since that'll kill the back seat and my son rides back there.  Maybe when he's too large to fit back there I'll install a rollbar and track the car, I'll assess it then and decide.  It's just too fast of a car on track with the factory safety equipment, just like the GT350, SS 1LE, any Corvette, GT4, etc, etc...

ShinnyGroove said:

I do HPDE  probably once a month .......

  They seem to be cars that can be comfortable daily drivers, and still kick a bunch of ass at the track..........

 

I have a problem with this.  No one should be kicking anyone’s ass at a HPDE event.  Either the event is being run wrong or the OP needs to re think a couple things.  Driving on track is a big responsibility. The biggest on of all is to know when you are practicing and when you are racing. Buying your way in to being able to kick ass at an HPDE event is a recipe for bad things to happen.  

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

In reply to z31maniac :

yeah, I had that thought after posting.  Should we assume this is a '94 1.8 turbo... 6psi?

'92 1.6L turbo, running 13psi and about 200whp (Mustang).  I'm guessing it's in the same league as an ND Miata or the twins, although I haven't driven either.

dean1484 said:

ShinnyGroove said:

I do HPDE  probably once a month .......

  They seem to be cars that can be comfortable daily drivers, and still kick a bunch of ass at the track..........

 

I have a problem with this.  No one should be kicking anyone’s ass at a HPDE event.  Either the event is being run wrong or the OP needs to re think a couple things.  Driving on track is a big responsibility. The biggest on of all is to know when you are practicing and when you are racing. Buying your way in to being able to kick ass at an HPDE event is a recipe for bad things to happen.  

I may have misstated my case, or you may have misinterpreted it.  In either case, I should be clear- I'm a safety first guy.  NASA had to kick me out of the novice group kicking and screaming.  I'm running full safety gear, fire suit, HANS, gloves, balaclava, shoes, etc. to run HPDE.  I've never once been black flagged.  Simply put- I do it for fun, and sometimes think about moving to a faster machine at some point to further develop my skills, and so I don't have to ride the bumper of "faster" cars for consecutive laps because they won't point me by in the straights.  The fact that I even made the OP in the first place should tell you that I take this discussion seriously.  I have a full comprehension of the responsibilities associated with driving on the track, more so than probably 90% of the other people that show up for these events.

docwyte said:

This is why I've decided to just auto-x the 911.  I refuse to put in a rollbar since that'll kill the back seat and my son rides back there.  Maybe when he's too large to fit back there I'll install a rollbar and track the car, I'll assess it then and decide.  It's just too fast of a car on track with the factory safety equipment, just like the GT350, SS 1LE, any Corvette, GT4, etc, etc...

This seems like the heart of the issue, unfortunately.  I think if I were to step up to one of those machines I would immediately feel unsafe with stock safety gear and possibly regret the decision.

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

"How are people able to drive $45k 450+hp cars on track with OEM safety and 3-point belts?"    Answer:  Easy, they're not thinking about the risk of crashing, or their ego is fooling themselves into thinking they're too good to crash, or they have thought about it and don't care.  This is clearly not you, you should not buy one of these cars, and if you do, you should not take it on track for anything other than parade laps.

I think this is overstating the case.

Doing 140 mph down the straight is not inherently dangerous, assuming the machinery is rated for it (no tire blowouts, car in good repair, etc).  The car isn't going to just randomly jump sideways into the wall.  The risk of hitting something comes when you get to the corner, with the need to brake for it and turn in at the proper speed.  The faster you turn in, the faster you go through the corner, and the more aggressive you are about powering out, the lower your lap time, but the higher your risk of screwing up and crashing.  This is (at least, IMHO), what people are talking about in the sense of driving at "eight tenths".

Of course, everyone has a different idea of how fast 8/10ths really is, but in general you can reduce your risk profile by doing each of those things less aggressively and leaving more safety margin in terms of grip that's available for recovering from an oopsie.  Thus, it is possible to drive a GT350 safely on track with a 3 point belt and no cage just by driving it more slowly in these ways.

When I say that I am not interested in driving a car unless it has full racecar-style safety, this is because I'm not interested in driving a car more slowly than I am capable of.  I want to push myself as a driver to improve my skills, and in my opinion this has reached a point where I need a safer car because I am close enough to the edge in some of those areas that I am worried about the consequences of screwing up.

If someone is having fun driving around a track in a GT350 or whatever far enough from the limit that he's not worried about crashing, then I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  It's just not what I want to do. :)

ShinnyGroove said:

dj06482 said:

My friend has a '15 Mustang GT with a Schroth harness that mounts to the factory seat belt receptacle on one side in the rear  and the factory mount point on the other side. I checked it out and thought it was a reasonable compromise for a dual duty car (he runs the stock 3pt belt on the street, and typically does 1-2 track events per year). He was able to install the whole setup in well under 5 min, which I thought was pretty quick. He knows the pros and cons of his setup and is comfortable with them.

Part of the reason I don't do any track work (aside from my time and budget limitations) is that I wouldn't do it without a full cage, fixed back seat, HANS, fire suppression, etc. 

 

So he runs with a four point harness then, no sub straps?  I may not be fully up to speed, but those are notoriously dangerous.  I would definitely want a five or six point harness.

Correct, no sub straps. He wants the harness to limit his movement in the seat (a CG lock won't work with his belts). He's fully aware of the risks inherent with this setup and is comfortable with them. Everyone has to make their own call as to where the line is.

ShinnyGroove said:

dean1484 said:

ShinnyGroove said:

I do HPDE  probably once a month .......

  They seem to be cars that can be comfortable daily drivers, and still kick a bunch of ass at the track..........

 

I have a problem with this.  No one should be kicking anyone’s ass at a HPDE event.  Either the event is being run wrong or the OP needs to re think a couple things.  Driving on track is a big responsibility. The biggest on of all is to know when you are practicing and when you are racing. Buying your way in to being able to kick ass at an HPDE event is a recipe for bad things to happen.  

I may have misstated my case, or you may have misinterpreted it.  In either case, I should be clear- I'm a safety first guy.  NASA had to kick me out of the novice group kicking and screaming.  I'm running full safety gear, fire suit, HANS, gloves, balaclava, shoes, etc. to run HPDE.  I've never once been black flagged.  Simply put- I do it for fun, and sometimes think about moving to a faster machine at some point to further develop my skills, and so I don't have to ride the bumper of "faster" cars for consecutive laps because they won't point me by in the straights.  The fact that I even made the OP in the first place should tell you that I take this discussion seriously.  I have a full comprehension of the responsibilities associated with driving on the track, more so than probably 90% of the other people that show up for these events.

nderwater said:

What do you guys think about speed limits for HPDE? 

I.E... Yes, your new Mustang/ Camaro/ Challenger/ Vette/ Porsche/ BMW/ Audi / AMG can hit ungodly speeds on the long back straight at Road Atlanta, but is that really teaching you anything you wouldn't learn at a lower speed?  Or are you just looking for a trap speed or lap time to brag about?  How do you think the instructor in your passenger seat feels about that?

What about the people that are just there to run their somewhat fast car harder than is practical on the street? 

They may not be interested at all in lap times or trap speeds or even learning the craft of high performance driving. They just want a safe legal place to play with their toy. Somewhere they don't have to worry about some drunk taking them out or a toddler running out into the street. 

I think these are the people that programs like TNIA are targeting. 

I've been over 140 in a friend's C5 Vette at COTA on a "parade" lap. I felt much safer there at that speed than the drive down in which the cruising speed was much higher. 

As is often the case in these matters there are multiple options:

A. If pushing both car and driver 100.001% than a cage, HANS is what I'd want 

B. In a car capable of of serious speed, it's possible to push in areas of the track that are low risk and leave wide margins in sections that are high risk.

C. If someone has bought themselves their dream car and just wants to drive it faster than they could on a nice winding road.

I enjoy momentum cars because for me there's a great feeling in flogging the snot out of a car but I also know things can really go off the rails so option A. Works for me.

I also love single seat cars but you have much less room for error and the reduced crash protection means you may need to leave wider margins in some places at certain tracks. Many vintage cars fall in this category as well.  Use Option B. 

I've said on more than one occasion if I had a high end car I'd likely drive it in a much different manner than I do my old Datsun. There are loads of people who go to track days with their modern sportbike simply because it's the only way to enjoy it fully. They aren't anywhere near the limit with it but still going fast enough to get arrested if they were on a public road......obviously option C.

@shinnygrove I really think option A. Is the way to go for you. I think feeling like you need to hold back even a little bit would take away to much of what you find fun. I also think that option C. would hold absolutely no charm whatsoever for you.

dj06482 said:

ShinnyGroove said:

dj06482 said:

My friend has a '15 Mustang GT with a Schroth harness that mounts to the factory seat belt receptacle on one side in the rear  and the factory mount point on the other side. I checked it out and thought it was a reasonable compromise for a dual duty car (he runs the stock 3pt belt on the street, and typically does 1-2 track events per year). He was able to install the whole setup in well under 5 min, which I thought was pretty quick. He knows the pros and cons of his setup and is comfortable with them.

Part of the reason I don't do any track work (aside from my time and budget limitations) is that I wouldn't do it without a full cage, fixed back seat, HANS, fire suppression, etc. 

 

So he runs with a four point harness then, no sub straps?  I may not be fully up to speed, but those are notoriously dangerous.  I would definitely want a five or six point harness.

Correct, no sub straps. He wants the harness to limit his movement in the seat (a CG lock won't work with his belts). He's fully aware of the risks inherent with this setup and is comfortable with them. Everyone has to make their own call as to where the line is.

Schroth harnesses have a built in weak spot in one of the shoulder straps so that in a collision, one of the straps will stretch more than the other so that your torso can torque forward over the lap belt. 

In fewer words, they act like 3 point belts in a collision, so they are acceptable without a sub belt to keep the lap belt in place.

frenchyd said:

Tom1200 said:

I may be misunderstanding but for a six point harness isn't the seat base going to be a problem?

Depending what motor is in my car it'll do between 95-110; I too have a full cage, HANS device and all the rest.

I've driven faster in non caged cars but I also leave plenty of margin when doing so. If you're going to be driving flat out, regardless of whether the car will do 85 or a 185, then a full cage is the way to go.

Modern crash tested cars are a lot safer than some of our vintage cars are even with a rollcage.  

 

They are also a whole lot faster, too, so you can get into even more trouble without too much effort.

About ten years ago, people were bitching online about the latest roll cage revision that Rally America was introducing, and someone wondered how they ever lived through the 1970s with 4 point cages, no HANS, etc.  It was pointed out that in the 1970s, the kind of cheap cars that they used (Toyotas, Datsuns, etc) generally had 70, maaaybe 100 horsepower, whereas today (2009-ish), you could buy economy cars that could do 150mph off the showroom floor.

Cars are really, really freakin' fast nowadays, in all directions not just acceleration.  Maybe we take it for granted.

Tom1200 said:

As is often the case in these matters there are multiple options:

A. If pushing both car and driver 100.001% than a cage, HANS is what I'd want 

B. In a car capable of of serious speed, it's possible to push in areas of the track that are low risk and leave wide margins in sections that are high risk.

C. If someone has bought themselves their dream car and just wants to drive it faster than they could on a nice winding road.

I enjoy momentum cars because for me there's a great feeling in flogging the snot out of a car but I also know things can really go off the rails so option A. Works for me.

I also love single seat cars but you have much less room for error and the reduced crash protection means you may need to leave wider margins in some places at certain tracks. Many vintage cars fall in this category as well.  Use Option B. 

I've said on more than one occasion if I had a high end car I'd likely drive it in a much different manner than I do my old Datsun. There are loads of people who go to track days with their modern sportbike simply because it's the only way to enjoy it fully. They aren't anywhere near the limit with it but still going fast enough to get arrested if they were on a public road......obviously option C.

@shinnygrove I really think option A. Is the way to go for you. I think feeling like you need to hold back even a little bit would take away to much of what you find fun. I also think that option C. would hold absolutely no charm whatsoever for you.

 

I like your answer Tom because you are right. One size doesn’t fit everyone.

I still Vintage race in Group 1 ( pre war , WW2, and MGT series.) No rollbar, seatbelt only etc.  

A prewar Bugatti, Alfa Romeo, etc. is such a valuable piece of history that owners treat them with complete respect and are dutifully careful. As a result a very good safety record in spite of the lack of a rollcage etc.  

In the early 1970’s when Vintage racing first gained popularity.  We worried about the no rollbar rule for group 1.  What we found is those who wanted to push the boundaries of speed were attracted to newer faster cars ( we allowed cars as new as 1959 back then) and thus old safety rules and equipment was sufficient. 

Newer cars are safer, massively so. It’s OK they are also faster. But also there are safer choices for those who seek assurance and that extra  margin of safety.  Thus the willingness of Insurance and the club’s  to be flexible. 

One  final point. We agree Momentum cars really are fun, even more so when there is a whole group of nearly identical momentum cars.  

Formula V  with their 40 hp motors, Formula Ford with their 110hp(?) motors, and MGT series with their 54 horsepower motors are three examples of just such groups. 

In those groups you focus 100% on squeezing every ounce of speed,  in my case all 75 mph.  You set up passes 2-3 laps in advance because a poorly timed pass will cost you several position as the train goes rumbling by.  

You can start 22nd and come in with a great big grin when you finish 17th.  People will be slapping your back and shaking your hand with great big grins on their face even though you may have passed them.  You’ll be slapping backs and shaking hands of those who finished ahead of you plus those you managed to get by.  It’s a very satisfying feeling to leave a track with your face sore from grinning.