In reply to kb58 :
It's intended to be a track toy that's streetable enough to drive it to the track. Track days mostly but with the possibility of doing time trial/time attack events. Not expecting to be competitive in those kinds of events. Just for fun. Handling, braking and balance are more important than monster horsepower. Reliability is important too. Horsepower goals may get adjusted with that in mind. Or I may need to modify engine internals to meet those goals. That will depend on platform, budget, etc.
400 track reliable HP in a new twin is probably going to add $15-20k to the cost of the car.
You'll need a built block, upgraded fuel system, oil cooler and radiator, turbo kit, and CD009 transmission swap. The suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes are going to add another significant set of costs to the car.
Gears and Gasoline guy built up a WRX and he gives an idea of mods and prices. Sure he has it as a daily driver but it gives you ideas of generally what to consider.
500hp = $79,560
The actual build is pretty good.
dps214
Dork
10/28/22 6:58 p.m.
z31maniac said:
400 track reliable HP in a new twin is probably going to add $15-20k to the cost of the car.
You'll need a built block, upgraded fuel system, oil cooler and radiator, turbo kit, and CD009 transmission swap. The suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes are going to add another significant set of costs to the car.
That's what I was getting at, I can't imagine the total investment ends up being less than like $60k plus a bunch of time and effort developing and refining everything. Maybe a little less for the civic, but not much. $60-70k goes pretty far in the "already track ready" market, especially if willing to buy used. And it'll almost certainly retain value much better, if that's a consideration.
400 crank horsepower in a Type R is a proven path, right? Bolt-ons and a tune. I have no idea how durable that config is on the track, but the path to produce that power should be very well understood by Honda guys.
dps214 said:
z31maniac said:
400 track reliable HP in a new twin is probably going to add $15-20k to the cost of the car.
You'll need a built block, upgraded fuel system, oil cooler and radiator, turbo kit, and CD009 transmission swap. The suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes are going to add another significant set of costs to the car.
That's what I was getting at, I can't imagine the total investment ends up being less than like $60k plus a bunch of time and effort developing and refining everything. Maybe a little less for the civic, but not much. $60-70k goes pretty far in the "already track ready" market, especially if willing to buy used. And it'll almost certainly retain value much better, if that's a consideration.
Yeah at that point you're well north of a Camaro SS 1LE.
In reply to z31maniac :
The reliability thing is making me think the Honda will be the better track car. K-series motors seem to put up with HP increases better. I'm reading a lot of stories about the FA and EJ Subaru motors having a variety of issues even stock. It doesn't hurt that the Type R motor is most of the way to my HP goal straight from the factory.
z31maniac said:
dps214 said:
z31maniac said:
400 track reliable HP in a new twin is probably going to add $15-20k to the cost of the car.
You'll need a built block, upgraded fuel system, oil cooler and radiator, turbo kit, and CD009 transmission swap. The suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes are going to add another significant set of costs to the car.
That's what I was getting at, I can't imagine the total investment ends up being less than like $60k plus a bunch of time and effort developing and refining everything. Maybe a little less for the civic, but not much. $60-70k goes pretty far in the "already track ready" market, especially if willing to buy used. And it'll almost certainly retain value much better, if that's a consideration.
Yeah at that point you're well north of a Camaro SS 1LE.
I don't want a pony car. They're all too big/heavy. I also want a modified car. That's part of the fun. If the idea is to eventually spend $65K-$70K on this track toy (and it is) I prefer to spend maybe half on the base car and then the rest across a few years modifying it. It's easier on the wallet, day to day, while giving me a much more focused track machine at the end.
ProDarwin said:
400 crank horsepower in a Type R is a proven path, right? Bolt-ons and a tune. I have no idea how durable that config is on the track, but the path to produce that power should be very well understood by Honda guys.
From my research on the 2017-2021 Type R, bumping HP up that amount doesn't seem to be difficult nor unrelaible. There does some to be one potential issue in the bottom end that I can't remember off hand so more research will be in order to understand and try to mitigate that. I'm guessing the factory (HPD) understands the car and motor very well from a competition standpoint and has solutions to keep it reliable.I don't think they're allowed to increase HP so there's that to consider too.
msterbeau said:
In reply to z31maniac :
The reliability thing is making me think the Honda will be the better track car. K-series motors seem to put up with HP increases better. I'm reading a lot of stories about the FA and EJ Subaru motors having a variety of issues even stock. It doesn't hurt that the Type R motor is most of the way to my HP goal straight from the factory.
Oh yeah a Subaru engine is going to be filled with problems trying to hit that power level. I'm sure some people do it, but it seems like the best option for that much power is an alternative power plant.
and then an alternative transmission
Datsun310Guy said:
Gears and Gasoline guy built up a WRX and he gives an idea of mods and prices. Sure he has it as a daily driver but it gives you ideas of generally what to consider.
500hp = $79,560
The actual build is pretty good.
I followed their K-swapped Civic build but haven't watched the STi build. The money thing is one of the classic arguments about having a fun car - Spend it all at once on something "more desirable" or build something more unique and focused from a cheaper base car? If the new Lotus Emira were just a bit less expensive I'd be very tempted to get one. The problem then becomes that there's little to no money left to modify it even a little to make it more suitable on the track. Track cars need better tires, brake pads and better cooling at a minimum. Lowering CG and more appropriate springs/dampers is next. And on and on it goes....
ProDarwin said:
msterbeau said:
In reply to z31maniac :
The reliability thing is making me think the Honda will be the better track car. K-series motors seem to put up with HP increases better. I'm reading a lot of stories about the FA and EJ Subaru motors having a variety of issues even stock. It doesn't hurt that the Type R motor is most of the way to my HP goal straight from the factory.
Oh yeah a Subaru engine is going to be filled with problems trying to hit that power level. I'm sure some people do it, but it seems like the best option for that much power is an alternative power plant.
and then an alternative transmission
Yeah that's why you have to go with a built block for any kind of track reliability.
STM317
PowerDork
10/31/22 5:28 a.m.
Light weight, sometimes trackable car screams Lotus to me. An Elise will be about 1k lbs lighter than a Civic Type R, and the low end of the market might actually be cheaper to buy at $35-40k.
I'm surprised nobody has suggested putting an LS motor in the GT86 yet. Integrating the body control module may be more trouble than it's worth, but it's 400 emissions legal horsepower out of the box if you use the right donor car
MadScientistMatt said:
I'm surprised nobody has suggested putting an LS motor in the GT86 yet. Integrating the body control module may be more trouble than it's worth, but it's 400 emissions legal horsepower out of the box if you use the right donor car
Because to do it properly, unless you're using used parts, it's just as expensive a fully built engine and turbo setup.
z31maniac said:
MadScientistMatt said:
I'm surprised nobody has suggested putting an LS motor in the GT86 yet. Integrating the body control module may be more trouble than it's worth, but it's 400 emissions legal horsepower out of the box if you use the right donor car
Because to do it properly, unless you're using used parts, it's just as expensive a fully built engine and turbo setup.
Sure, but now you have a big V8 that's been engineered by GM to last for hundreds of thousands of miles instead of a turbo four that's been heavily modified. Plus probably a bunch more area under the curve, which is a lot more useful than a high peak. So it may not be cheaper to get going, but I'll bet it would be more reliable and more effective for the same money. It's just harder to do in baby steps. The advantage of the turbo is that you can start small at low boost and them make the jump to a built engine when the flat four bites it.
It may have missed some people, but the car I posted earlier as a suggestion is one of our LS-powered NDs. Light weight, big power, totally understressed drivetrain, appropriate suspension and brakes, streetable enough for 1000 mile days. Pretty much checks all the boxes here other than the "buy cheap and spend over a long period" plan.
In reply to MadScientistMatt :
Totally on my radar for that car. Waiting to see if someone does a relatively complete kit. I assume there might be one since the 2013-2021 generation and the new one are very similar under the hood. And yes I get that it would probably be as expensive as rebuilding the motor for track work and more HP.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I doubt an LS lives for hundreds of thousands of miles when used almost exclusively at the track. It also needs proper oiling and cooling - beyond what it generally comes stock - according to GRM and many others. Likewise, getting 400hp from a turbo 4 is not particularly high stress in this day and age. You can get one from AMG/Mercedes with a warrantee on it.
Still... The idea has definitely crossed my mind. I've never owned a V8 car nor raced/tracked a RWD car. Now's the time before I get too old for new tricks. :-)
In reply to STM317 :
Unless I found a pristine one, which will go for more money, I'm feeling like most Elises would be abused and in need of some TLC. I kinda have my heart set on a car that no one else has laid there grubby paws on. :-)
Speaking of Lotus - A Caterham 7 is third in line for possible track cars. I would love the new 420R Cup, which is perfect!! But a little beyond my budget since they only come preassembled. A regular 420R would be fantastic too but a little more street oriented than the Cup. The one significant downside to the 7 is it's open topped. I'm a little leary of being so exposed. Even with the full cage option. Still... The kit is $45 and I'm absolutely capable of assembling one myself. I'd love it with a bit more than 220hp. Somewhat closer to the 620R's 315hp. Understanding that power to weight at 220hp and 1250lbs is already pretty amazing.
I was going to suggest a turbo Exocet which would have about the right power/weight and come in a whole lot cheaper. The Caterham would do it too, although at a higher cost, but have some resale value. The creature comforts are lacking in both, as well as the nannies - I'm pretty sure Caterhams don't have ABS, etc..
I've had an LS3-powered track Miata for about a decade. Nothing exotic in cooling (a radiator built for the application), nothing exotic in oiling (trapdoors in the oil pan). It's just an anvil. I've also got a fair bit of experience with 2.0 engines with aftermarket turbos, and the effort is definitely higher to keep them happy with hard use. There's a big difference between a Subaru engine with an aftermarket turbo bolted on and an AMG power unit left as the engineers made it.
With our stuff, I figure the crossover point where it's less expensive to LS swap is 350-400 - and you end up with a stronger drivetrain overall with the LS. There's also this:
I also tracked a Seven with 148 whp for several years, and it was a quick little thing until the drag became an issue at higher speeds. You're definitely exposed on all sides, and with a car like that you want super-sharp response over power. I spent a considerable amount of time in one with a turbo 1.8 and while it was definitely more powerful, it was missing the scalpel's edge that made the high compression naturally aspirated car so much fun. Weirdly, the Exocet didn't seem to have that downside, possibly because it's a bit bigger and heavier. An Exocet with a bolt-on turbo running roughly 250 wheel hp is in a real sweet spot for fun and price. Definitely safer, though - I'd much rather crash an Exocet than a 7.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Maybe it was just the LS1/LS6, but I recall that almost every tracked RX-7 with an LS swap would eventually scatter the engine. I recall some 'Vettes and CTS-Vs too. What looked like was happening was either a piston broke or a valve lost its head first. It's hard to say exactly what the initial failure was, because the end result would be a pistonless connecting rod (often #6 or #4) punching a hole through the cylinder to either the water jacket or all the way to atmosphere. Fun when it happens at 110.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I remember something about 1.xg in a left turn for more than y seconds causing oiling problems in one of the heads on a certain sub-model of the LS family. We've been using nothing more than oil pans with really good oil control and it doesn't seem to be a problem - there's even a customer who's been winning endurance races for years in his. Almost every one we've built has been an LS3, so that's a generation newer than the LS1/6.
The fact that the engines are stock internally with a stock redline instead of "just a cam and a tune and some rockers and valve springs" probably helps. Every LS failure I've had was an "improved" part: the CNC ported head that ventilated the water jacket into the ports on the first session of two days at Laguna Seca, and the aftermarket rocker that snapped as I noodled along at 30 mph in 4th. Get a crate, treat it like a sealed box of horsepowers, enjoy.
Keith Tanner said:
z31maniac said:
MadScientistMatt said:
I'm surprised nobody has suggested putting an LS motor in the GT86 yet. Integrating the body control module may be more trouble than it's worth, but it's 400 emissions legal horsepower out of the box if you use the right donor car
Because to do it properly, unless you're using used parts, it's just as expensive a fully built engine and turbo setup.
Sure, but now you have a big V8 that's been engineered by GM to last for hundreds of thousands of miles instead of a turbo four that's been heavily modified. Plus probably a bunch more area under the curve, which is a lot more useful than a high peak. So it may not be cheaper to get going, but I'll bet it would be more reliable and more effective for the same money. It's just harder to do in baby steps. The advantage of the turbo is that you can start small at low boost and them make the jump to a built engine when the flat four bites it.
It may have missed some people, but the car I posted earlier as a suggestion is one of our LS-powered NDs. Light weight, big power, totally understressed drivetrain, appropriate suspension and brakes, streetable enough for 1000 mile days. Pretty much checks all the boxes here other than the "buy cheap and spend over a long period" plan.
Oh I agree. I understand his concern about weight. But I can't imagine building a $70k BRZ HPDE car, that literally won't fit into any racing class if he wants down the line.
Over ordering a 1SS Camaro 1LE for $45k and enjoying a car with 455hp, massive brakes, external coolers for the engine/transmission/diff, EDiff, magnaride shocks, etc. And a freaking warranty. The only reason I didn't buy one instead of my new BRZ, because it felt like a waste to buy a track car that would likely see the track 1-2 per year, if that.
I just don't have the stomach for the time and expense anymore.
Keith Tanner said:
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I remember something about 1.xg in a left turn for more than y seconds causing oiling problems in one of the heads on a certain sub-model of the LS family. We've been using nothing more than oil pans with really good oil control and it doesn't seem to be a problem - there's even a customer who's been winning endurance races for years in his. Almost every one we've build has been an LS3, so that's a generation newer than the LS1/6.
The fact that the engines are stock internally with a stock redline instead of "just a cam and a tune and some rockers and valve springs" probably helps. Every LS failure I've had was an "improved" part: the CNC ported head that ventilated the water jacket into the ports on the first session of two days at Laguna Seca, and the aftermarket rocker that snapped as I noodled along at 30 mph in 4th. Get a crate, treat it like a sealed box of horsepowers, enjoy.
Crate motor with improved oil pan (If necessary) or dry sump. Boom. Done. There's currently one with 430hp which is probably pretty low stress for a V8 of that displacement - That would be perfect. Get a T56, drive shaft and whatever you do to those cars for a strengthened differential... Assuming that's a necessity.
"...sealed box of horsepowers". I like the plural. LOL!
