In reply to jwagner (Forum Supporter) :
I'm a designer. Exocets are visual abonimations. Do not want. :-)
Also - It seems obvious but I'm definitely not caring about creature comforts. It's a track car. Period. It only goes on the street to get to the track without the hassle of having a trailer and tow vehicle laying around.
In reply to z31maniac :
The car will be able to run some of the time trial/time attack classes. Unmodified from where I plan to go it will probably not be competitive but should be fairly easy to dial up or down to make it so. Depends where exactly I end up with it. If I decide to put a cage in it eventually, it will be built to SCCA/NASA/Time Attack rules so it fits in a competition class should the next owner want to take it there.
msterbeau said:Keith Tanner said:If you can get a power adder with an EO, there's a much better chance your supplier will be in business in the future. Those who sell devices that don't have an EO will either get a big fine from the EPA or they'll stop selling those devices. This can easily spiral into a political discussion, but no matter what it's the reality of our world at the moment - and will remain so on any car that has a license plate. Doesn't matter if you only drive it once a year, if it's ever used as a street car it's a street car.
Engine tuning will be required if you want 400 hp. The ECU will have to be reflashed (best option for emissions compliance) or replaced. It's easy to make power on a dyno with a standalone ECU, but it's very hard to get good idle and cold start and voltage compensation and all the stuff that powertrain engineers spend thousands of hours on. Most people driving less nice cars just ignore it. Note that you will not ever find a standalone that will pass an OBD emissions test, so it's a non-starter if you have regular inspections or want to sell the car to a state that does.
Generally speaking, non-powertrain related things are controlled by an independent Body Control Module. It might communicate with the Powertrain Control Module (aka ECU) but is probably not reliant on it. It's unlikely power windows will stop working if the PCM goes away. It's unlikely the airbag system is tied into the PCM either, and removing AC would probably just result in an error about non-functional AC and not affect how the car runs. Pulling the PCM will 100% result in a loss of dynamic stability control and hopefully will not affect ABS. It might also take out your gauge cluster - scratch that, it probably will unless you can get a standalone that will output the correct manufacturer-specific CAN messages. You'd be surprised how some of this stuff interacts, the fuel gauge on a modern Miata depends on a signal from the PCM for example.
The easiest option is to get a car that already has good power and concentrate on the driver and the suspension. Picking a random number like "400 ish" says you're just reading forums and specs and you like the sound of it. Keep in mind that nearly doubling engine output can have effects on a bunch of other things like differentials and transmissions that are optimized for efficiency, so going down that road can snowball.
I'm not saying don't do it. I'm writing this from my shop where there's a 500 hp Miata on the lift and a turbo Miata parked outside and I've been living in the automotive horsepower aftermarket for over 20 years. Just go in with your eyes open.
Thanks for your response Keith.
I'm in Michigan. No emissions stuff to deal with at the moment. Though I don't expect that to be forever.
Absolutely expect to do do both mechanical and ecu tuning to get to HP goals. The more likely car is the Type R. 400hp is a +125% increase. The GR86 is more like +170% The Honda should be straightforward with a few bolt ons and ECU tuning. The GR86 is more challenging and more $$$ but not difficult according to all the research I've done so far. Reliability will be more of a factor though. 400HP ish is not a random number. It's one based on where I've been, performance-wise, where I'd like to be and what is reasonably attainable and reliable. Neither is it an absolute necessity. Just a nice round number to aim towards.I've worked in the car industry for three decades. All the stuff you mentioned about PCM and BCM jives with what I've heard over the years. This post is intended to get me as much input as possible before I start spending money. I'd much rather expect certain issues than be blindsided by them. Stability control, traction control and all those dynamic enhancements are things I would prefer to not have on the car. The only digital assistance I'm OK with is ABS. So if the former is disable with certain modifications I'm OK with that. If the ABS goes too it becomes and issue. The CANBUS stuff definitely worries me, but at the same time I see that people/companies seem to be figuring out how to decode/interpret the signals or make devices that bypass it altogether. On the other hand, manufacturers seem to be locking things down a lot more to deter hacking by thieves. (Hello new Mustang!) There will obviously be more specific research as I get closer to deciding what car to start with. And then more research as I get into it. And then more research after that. :-)
So here's a question.. it may be one you or others can't answer: What does HPD and others that develop turn-key cars like the ones for TC/TCA class of SRO World Challenge do with their ECU's? I assume they have a bit of custom tuning and silence any alarms from disabling certain parts of the car? Are these special parts available and/or the knowledge on how to deal with these issues generally available to people like us? Just to racers? No one except those who buy the whole car?
Eyes open is the whole point of this post. Thanks again for the input.
State inspection of emissions and the requirements to have emission devices on the car and the compliance with emission standards are federal law and apply to all states. The chances of getting caught are very low but don't confuse the lack of inspection for compliance with it not applying to your vehicle if it is driven on the road.
The chances of getting caught are exceedingly small. Especially since the EPA is going after the suppliers and not the end users. It is a common fallacy people fall into that because your state does not inspect for compliance that the federal law does not apply.
In reply to dean1484 :
A good point that I did not know. Thanks.
In reply to dean1484 :
The EPA won't go after individuals - but that's why I mentioned the supplier being in business in the future. The EPA and the ARB have stated that emissions defeat devices are a specific target of enforcement, and it is the vendors/manufacturers that get the fines. There are a few potential ways this will shake out but none of them will ease the rules for cars that are used on the street, no matter how rarely.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I remember something about 1.xg in a left turn for more than y seconds causing oiling problems in one of the heads on a certain sub-model of the LS family. We've been using nothing more than oil pans with really good oil control and it doesn't seem to be a problem - there's even a customer who's been winning endurance races for years in his. Almost every one we've built has been an LS3, so that's a generation newer than the LS1/6.
The fact that the engines are stock internally with a stock redline instead of "just a cam and a tune and some rockers and valve springs" probably helps. Every LS failure I've had was an "improved" part: the CNC ported head that ventilated the water jacket into the ports on the first session of two days at Laguna Seca, and the aftermarket rocker that snapped as I noodled along at 30 mph in 4th. Get a crate, treat it like a sealed box of horsepowers, enjoy.
Is your preferred box of horsepowers one of the GMPP crate options? I've been considering that for my next build but wasn't sure where folks buy engines these days.
msterbeau said:In reply to z31maniac :
The car will be able to run some of the time trial/time attack classes. Unmodified from where I plan to go it will probably not be competitive but should be fairly easy to dial up or down to make it so. Depends where exactly I end up with it. If I decide to put a cage in it eventually, it will be built to SCCA/NASA/Time Attack rules so it fits in a competition class should the next owner want to take it there.
What class? What you're talking about is essentially putting it in some type of unlimited class where it would likely never be competitive.
If you think racing is in your future, you should really study the different rule sets for different classes for different sanctioning bodies.
dclafleur said:Keith Tanner said:In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I remember something about 1.xg in a left turn for more than y seconds causing oiling problems in one of the heads on a certain sub-model of the LS family. We've been using nothing more than oil pans with really good oil control and it doesn't seem to be a problem - there's even a customer who's been winning endurance races for years in his. Almost every one we've built has been an LS3, so that's a generation newer than the LS1/6.
The fact that the engines are stock internally with a stock redline instead of "just a cam and a tune and some rockers and valve springs" probably helps. Every LS failure I've had was an "improved" part: the CNC ported head that ventilated the water jacket into the ports on the first session of two days at Laguna Seca, and the aftermarket rocker that snapped as I noodled along at 30 mph in 4th. Get a crate, treat it like a sealed box of horsepowers, enjoy.
Is your preferred box of horsepowers one of the GMPP crate options? I've been considering that for my next build but wasn't sure where folks buy engines these days.
I'm a big fan of the LS376/525. Super fun throttle response and a cam that's very easy on the valve train. Really wakes the engine up compared to the 430 cam. Every cam promises more power but I like the history of this one - it's from the ASA stock car series and has proven reliability.
The dyno chart I posted earlier is from a 525.
Keith Tanner said:
I know of a 2600 lb RWD modern car with 500 crank hp that's a track-ready dual purpose car. In fact, it's going up on BaT shortly. Might not be as cheap as a stock Type R, but might be less than making the Type R compete...
When is this happening? Are we thinking $40kish, $60kish, $80kish, or $100kish? It bums me out that FM doesn't build these anymore.
In reply to CrashDummy :
I just heard it's going live tomorrow. Only one other of the NDs has ever been sold, and it went for $83k a couple of years ago. That one was lower mileage and had a Lingenfelter engine, but this is the car that was in all the articles and it still only has 16k on the chassis.
The NA/NB FM-built ones are usually in the $40s.
Edit: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2016-mazda-mx-5-miata-36/
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