Modular Mustang Cobra for autocross/weekend driving

I sold my long time autocross car around the start of the pandemic.  For the few events we have had since then, I have towed my challenge car to events.  I get to run hoosiers and all is good in the world for a few minutes.  After getting back from the most recent event, my wife and I both noticed that we were missing the time spent together on the drives to the events.  With a one year old, we don't get much time with just the two of us.  Pulling a trailer requires enough thought that I am not always all there for conversation in the car.

Our plans have shifted from keeping the challenge car long term to selling it after the event and buying something that seats 2 adults and 2 children in car seats.  I keep buying BMWs so my regular move here would be to get an E36 328i, E46 330i, or maybe an M3 from either generation.  I work from home so there is no daily drive.  The car would need to work for weekend drives to breakfast and autocross with a stop at grandma's to drop off the kid.  A sedan would be great but is not mandatory.  I need modern AC so anything older than ~1995 is out.  I would prefer to avoid cars with a top mount intercooler due to heatsoak during autocross.

I "found" the Mustang Cobra a few days ago and don't know how I missed it.  It slots nicely into CAM-T for autocross and I assume it will make it into STU when the new fast stuff gets added in 2021.  Struts in front and independent rear sounds like a BMW to me.  Torque is significantly better than the S54 and peak hp is competitive depending on whose numbers you believe.  The car is a little wider than the E46 but has a shorter wheelbase.  What are the negatives that I am missing here?  The E46 M3 is heralded as one of the greatest cars of all time.  On paper this seems like a prettty good domestic competitor: big engine makes up for crappy interior.  Have I spent too long around the autocross types that just drive Miatas while ignoring domestic cars?

If you like BMWs I don't think you would enjoy your time spent in the mustang interior. E46 M3 is one of my favorite cars, but they are not without their weaknesses.

What Cobra?

Caddy CTSV could be an option if you want muscle/sedan.  1st gens are around 10k now, LS6 plus Manual.

I am looking at the 1999-2002ish new edge cobra with the 4.6l modular engine.  300+ torque and hp at around 3500lbs.  A quick look around puts a driver around $8k but I know there will be deferred maintenance at that price.

I am pretty familiar with the BMWs.  The biggest problem for me is I don't fit into sunroof cars.  I need an aftermarket seat and a sunroof delete to fit with a helmet.  Otherwise, I can handle standard BMW maintenance + rod bearings.

I agree that the interior on the mustang is pretty bad.  I can upgrade all the touch points: steering wheel, shifter, pedals, seat.  What else needs upgrading to match the BMWs?

96-98 were live axle. 99 and 01 ( no 2000 or 2002) had a version of IRS. 03-04 are unobtainable under $25k. The N/A DOHC 4.6 leaves a lot to be desired power wise given its size and complexity (~260 rwhp). 

You might be better off to look into a modular New Edge GT(99-04). You can get a clean driver for $3-$4k. The PI 4.6 is a decent power plant stock (~225 rwhp) and parts for a New Edge are dirt cheap. Also the New Edge is a very simple car. 
 

Granted, a factory new edge GT handles like a wet turd, but the money you save over a Cobra can get you a lot suspension work.

FatMongo said:

96-98 were live axle. 99 and 01 ( no 2000 or 2002) had a version of IRS. 03-04 are unobtainable under $25k. The N/A DOHC 4.6 leaves a lot to be desired power wise given its size and complexity (~260 rwhp). 

You might be better off to look into a modular New Edge GT(99-04). You can get a clean driver for $3-$4k. The PI 4.6 is a decent power plant stock (~225 rwhp) and parts for a New Edge are dirt cheap. Also the New Edge is a very simple car. 
 

Granted, a factory new edge GT handles like a wet turd, but the money you save over a Cobra can get you a lot suspension work.

Agreed with all of this, and I'll add that $8k gets you a decent early S197. Much better chassis, more power than the non-Cobra New Edge cars, and probably more torque than any of them. And the front suspension is actually a BMW knockoff.

Hey, so I have a 97 cobra and a 2year old. Car seats are rough in it. I can take some demo pics tomorrow maybe. When you move past the click into base seats, but are still in a rear face, it's almost impossible with the kids seat I have because of roof clearance more than anything. That's with a stock passenger seat in it. Oh yeah, I don't know when they got latch for car seats, but it's after 1997 for sure.

I used to run in STX before it got bumped and wasn't competitive. Stu would be worse. Cam is the place to be, but serious suspension investment if you want to be nationally relevant. With some fender massage you can fit 315's all around. I'm a wuss and kept to 275's though. 17's are starting to get harder to find in good compounds, so look at 18s and think which way you want to go.

It's a fun car and I could share plenty of tips, I have been autocrossing mine since 2004 with some time off in an STS Miata and now fmod.

Relevant to your interest

FatMongo said:

96-98 were live axle. 99 and 01 ( no 2000 or 2002) had a version of IRS. 03-04 are unobtainable under $25k. The N/A DOHC 4.6 leaves a lot to be desired power wise given its size and complexity (~260 rwhp). 

You might be better off to look into a modular New Edge GT(99-04). You can get a clean driver for $3-$4k. The PI 4.6 is a decent power plant stock (~225 rwhp) and parts for a New Edge are dirt cheap. Also the New Edge is a very simple car. 
 

Granted, a factory new edge GT handles like a wet turd, but the money you save over a Cobra can get you a lot suspension work.

 

 

 

the dohc mod motors all made over 300hp - 96-98 were 305hp and the 99-01 were 320hp  the early sn95 4.6s made 215 and later 225hp, 260 was the new edge 4.6.  when the S197 came out it made 300hp from the 3-valve sohc 4.6 

In reply to Strizzo :

You don't say???

What do these motors make on a dyno?

In reply to Apexcarver :

My one year old is a giant.  He is already in 3t/4t clothing and is literally off the growth chart.  I am ok with occasional trips in a forward facing seat since we have a family car for regular errands.  I saw latch logos on some 2003-2004 cars but I don't know when they were added either.

The goal is a streetable car that stays off the bump stops in autocross.  I am thinking a basic cam build would look like mid priced coilovers, poly bushings, sway bars, camber adjustment, and subframe connectors.  Diff down the road.  My guess is that the IRS will do more to help the streetability than autocross times.

The cobra looks pretty favorably classed in cam-t.  The s197 is in cam-c and have to fight against gt350s and Camaro SS 1les.

The big question for me is whether spending similar money on an E36 m3 + similar upgrades to go similar speeds will be similar fun.

The suspension recipe on my car is as follows

• H&R "race" springs (the red ones)
• Maximum Motorsports Caster Camber plates
• Koni Yellows
• Poly front bushings
• Addco front bar (cant remember size, its a monster I bought from Sam Strano, hes worth a call)
• 03 cobra 17x9 inch wheels with 200tw of the day
• Race seats (pass reverted to stock for wifes comfort on street) the stock seats dont hold you in well for autocross
• Currently stock diff with alternate (tighter) clutch packing order. (burned up an Auburn Road race diff when it was in ESP trim for awhile)  I suggest some form of torsen or trutrac, these cars eat diff clutch packs. Figure rebuild of stock every other year of serious autox

If I wasnt retiring the car to backup auto-x only I would add (Mostly solid rear axle stuff)

• Rear LCA's (DONT DO THE UPPERS unless you did a 3 link, stiffer bushings on uppers will bind and tear the floor)
• Subframe braces (long ones from MM)
• Either a torque arm or the Steeda 5-link 

The IRS design on the 99+ cobra is a compromised design with a frame to bolt in place of a solid rear axle. Big soft bushings, so look into improving that situation.  If I recall correctly, if I swapped its at least 60lbs heavier (though it would help equal out my 57% front weight distribution). most comparisons I have seen have a properly setup solid rear as faster until you get into bumpier lots. 

As far as vs the BMW, I wouldnt know. The mustang suspension without improvements is garbage and its not going to be a light car. I think mine scaled at 3300 with over a half tank of gas. The motor in the mustang was really good for its era, but kinda got left with the times. 

I think the mustang would take more work than the BMW to make it handle well and with the kid requirements, the 4 door availability would clench it for me if I was doing over.   Was looking at Cadillac AST for the wife recently as something else to consider.

What about a 6.0 GTO?  I saw one the other day in the wild and had forgot how good they sound and the looks have aged very well. No clue if one would fit in your budget. 

Oh. And there is the SS. Much newer but a sleeper. 

FatMongo said:

In reply to Strizzo :

You don't say???

What do these motors make on a dyno?

sorry i didn't know we were magazine racing. i thought the power issues were only on the early 32v motors  and had been fixed....

dean1484 said:

What about a 6.0 GTO?  I saw one the other day in the wild and had forgot how good they sound and the looks have aged very well. No clue if one would fit in your budget. 

I had one of those. It's a lot of fun, but it's more of a boulevard cruiser than a cone chaser. They are boats, and I'm not sure how much tire you can fit under them.

Have you considered an E39 540i 6-Speed?

I've had that and an S197, and while the S197 was lightly modified compared to the stock E39... I would honestly have to say that I enjoyed the E39 a tad more.

For light modifications, the E39 > S197... 

Once we start building a dedicated road racer... and spend a larger sum of money, then the Mustang's aftermarket starts kicking into gear. 

Strizzo said:

FatMongo said:

In reply to Strizzo :

You don't say???

What do these motors make on a dyno?

sorry i didn't know we were magazine racing. i thought the power issues were only on the early 32v motors  and had been fixed....

You do realize there is a difference between a power rating at the crank and what the engine transmitting power through the drivetrain puts down at the wheels, yes?

All the factory N/A 32 valves are good for about 260 ish hp at the wheels. All the PI 16 valves are good for about 225 at the wheels.

Granted, dyno types and operators will vary, but the above are what about 2 decades of real life dynor results show on stock cars (+ / - 10 hp). Dont see how that is magazine racing.

Mongo, Strizzo;  Just hopeful I can head off a disagreement here and just put a fork in it...

Yeah, the advertised HP that you see in every new car is crank HP (what an engine dyno would give) and RWHP (what a chassis dyno would give) is a better real world metric for how the car would actually perform because it takes driveline losses into account. That being said, while its more accurate, people easily get confused because its not an apples to apples discussion and all the automakers advertise crank HP, so pretty much all of the magazine quoted HP would seem artificially high if someone comes in quoting RWHP. 

Quoted crank HP is 305 (1996-1998) and 320 (1999, 2001-2002 *2000's don't exist outside of the Cobra R and that is a wholly different and much more expensive can of worms; also the 1999's had a big thing about not quite making the advertised HP and there was aparrently some fixes that were done at dealerships, though I cant remember exactly what they were) for the cobras. Mongos numbers are close to every chassis dyno result I have seen, which makes sense as 305hp with the commonly quoted 15% driveline loss is 265 (which I have seen quoted in a number of my year cobras on a dyno, mine has never been though).

that about cover it?

You are both good dudes, btw. 

I love the exhaust sound of the 99/01 Cobras.  That being said when I looked at them before I got my Z06, my mustang friends had recommend the Mach1 from that gen.  Lighter, better handling, easier to work on, similar price, similar power.

ojannen said:

What are the negatives that I am missing here?

While shorter wheelbase sounds good for autox, it also means less space (length) for car seats to fit behind adults. Some time with a rear facing car seat at a few used car dealerships was a quick way to cross SN95/NE Mustangs off my list. The S197 (300HP V6 and V8 available sub-$10k) and BMW (at least the 128i) have at least been passable for us.

In reply to FatMongo :

There's a gentleman who runs in CAM-T locally with a V-6 New Edge. He added the IRS from a T-Bird and is one the top drivers at the local autox.

Don't all of the stick axle cars through 04 have four link rear ends (with the reputation for snap oversteer when stock) as a carry over from the fox platform?

I am going to try to test drive a Mustang if Florida stops being the Coronavirus capitol of the world for a few weeks.  I need to see if I am going to fit in the car with a helmet and see how much of a pain it is to put the toddler in the back.

With my experience, an E36 M3 sedan is the obvious choice.  I prefer a smaller sized car for a weekend car.  The Lexus is300 ticks all the boxes too but I don't like it as much as the BMW.  The full sized sedans would make good daily drivers but aren't quite what I am looking for.  I have never driven a muscle car around a corner so I am curious if the torque and fat tires make up for some of the weight and pushiness.  Thanks for the information.

Just buy one.  If you don't like it you can sell it next month for the same price.