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z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/7/20 9:46 a.m.
bcp2011 said:
z31maniac said:

According to the last census it's more like 82% of the population live in a "metro area."

Please don't litter this thread with facts.  Thank you.  

I know, they get in the way of uninformed rants. 

I don't understand this mindset, "Well, it won't work for me in my specific edge case, so it's terrible and can't possibly work for anyone."

If it won't work for you, don't buy one. It seems pretty simple. 

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/7/20 9:49 a.m.

Saying that one is being "pushed" to use EVs reminds me of a very sad story. The daughter of an acquaintance died in a car wreck driving a Smart car. One of his main ways of  dealing with the grief was to blame Obama for forcing that sort of vehicle down our throats. 

Make of that what you will.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 10:03 a.m.

I've posted before about my trip to Las Vegas - the EV version would have been identical to the ICE version, assuming I actually ate lunch sitting at a table like a civilized human instead of choking down a drive-through burger while steering with my knees. And that's through a section of interstate that's so non-urban that the "last gas for 100 miles" signs are ignored at your peril. 

The Jackson Hole - Cody trip is totally plausible, as it turns out. There are a couple of Level 2 chargers in Riverton. Stop for a bite to eat and pick up a chunk of range. Plugshare has reviews from a bunch of Tesla owners including one in December, so this is a trip people are actually doing. Also - I've never seen this mentioned anywhere - an RV hookup is pretty darn close to a Level 2 charger and those are everywhere.

It's always possible to come up with an edge case, but the truth of the matter is that modern EVs can do the vast majority of what people do with ICE vehicles. They also bring a different set of attributes to the table. It's interesting to see the reasoning people have for purchasing - for some, it's balls-out speed. For some, it's environmental. For some, it's a way to save money, or maybe it's the lack of noise and vibration. All valid reasons, but surprisingly varied.

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
1/7/20 10:29 a.m.
Tom_Spangler said:
dculberson said:

Im not aware of a single person "pushing" this tech on you any more than any other product gets pushed since they're trying to, you know, sell things. Maybe try to unwrap your feelings of being thought a bumpkin from the discussion of a car. 

I'm going to try not to patio this thread by treading lightly, but you can't say nobody is "pushing" EVs when they've enjoyed significant government incentives for quite some time. I don't think you'd see nearly as many of them around if the free market was determining demand on it's own. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but it is a fact.

Having said that, you can obviously still buy ICE cars, keep what you have, etc.

I appreciate it your treading lightly. Honestly there have been so many tax incentives for oil and gas production but we don't spend every thread about a new gas powered car railing about those. I don't know and haven't looked into it, but I suspect the cumulative tax breaks for gas and oil eclipse those for EVs by several orders of magnitude at this point. Encouraging a new technology is also not at all equivalent to pushing them down people's throats.

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/7/20 10:41 a.m.
dculberson said:
I appreciate it your treading lightly. Honestly there have been so many tax incentives for oil and gas production but we don't spend every thread about a new gas powered car railing about those. I don't know and haven't looked into it, but I suspect the cumulative tax breaks for gas and oil eclipse those for EVs by several orders of magnitude at this point. Encouraging a new technology is also not at all equivalent to pushing them down people's throats.

Could be, I haven't looked into the numbers. All I'm saying is that there are forces at work to try and encourage/push/emphasize however you want to put it, EVs.

Then again, I guess you could say the US "pushes" ICE vehicles by having much lower fuel taxes than the rest of the developed world. It's a complex issue, to be sure.

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Reader
1/7/20 10:49 a.m.

The Model S in Ludicrous+ mode does 0-60 in 2.28 seconds.  After experiencing that, I don't understand how anyone who enjoys cars can still complain about electric cars.  They're the future and the future is coming fast, and I'm excited for it.  A cleaner vehicle - even if 100% powered by coal energy, it's still cleaner - that's faster, quieter, no toxic exhaust fumes, lower center of gravity, and boy oh boy that acceleration!  

 

Looks like there's some speculation that Sony's car may just be something to show off all their new technology, not an actual car.  But, I read that it has 500+ horsepower and does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds with a top speed of 149.  I hope they make it and keep the price reasonable.  The horsepower (voltage?) wars of EVs are beginning and it's berkleying awesome.

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/sony-vision-s-electric-car-prototype

white_fly
white_fly HalfDork
1/7/20 11:29 a.m.

Can we talk about the car? You know, the one this thread is about?

The theory that it's more a rolling technology showcase than an actual marketable vehicle is the only thing that makes sense to me, because this seems like a pretty rough time to start making electric cars and a pretty great time to start making parts for electric and autonomous cars. Tesla, Porsche and Polestar already make similar cars, Lucid, NIO, Byton, Faraday Future and probably some others are working on a similar car and Dyson gave up on making one after a massive investment. What is it about this one that makes it competitive in this kind of market? 

The proliferation of screens is nothing new, but it's interesting that they chose to do an innovative car audio system. As cars become quieter and need less driver input, I can see car audio becoming much more relevant than it is currently. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 11:42 a.m.

As the EV market evolves, it'll be interesting to see if it remains analogous to the ICE market (every manufacturer has unique power trains and platforms) or if it reverts to the older coachbuilding model (a small number of manufacturers provide the power train and platform, other companies turn these into finished vehicles). For example, are the power units going to be Bosch/Dana vs Webato, or will they be Ford vs GM? Does it make sense for the ICE manufacturers to develop their own tech or just buy it?

Or, in the ICE world, TVR (bespoke engines) vs Morgan (we got this one from BMW, but maybe we'll use a Ford next time)?

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
1/7/20 11:44 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

And for me: the pure laziness of not wanting to go to a gas station once or twice a week for my DD. cheeky

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 11:50 a.m.

Janel absolutely loves the fact that she never has to go to the gas station. I had no idea this was such an annoyance for her.

_
_ Dork
1/7/20 11:51 a.m.
z31maniac said:
Gingerbeardman said: Half of Americans live outside of major metro areas in the "flyover states".

 

According to the last census it's more like 82% of the population live in a "metro area."

 

 

Yes, And this is 99% of the problems in America. Spread out people!

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
1/7/20 11:56 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

As the EV market evolves, it'll be interesting to see if it remains analogous to the ICE market (every manufacturer has unique power trains and platforms) or if it reverts to the older coachbuilding model (a small number of manufacturers provide the power train and platform, other companies turn these into finished vehicles).

One thing I've never really understood is why BetterPlace failed.  I know next to nothing about batteries or electric motors, but the idea of creating a common battery pack that could be swapped seems like an easy solution to the issue of range, charging, etc.  Imagine, if that infrastructure is in place, which admittedly is a high hurdle, one can basically just go get battery packs like we do gas right now.  And, since it's a common pack, it could go into different vehicles with different needs (e.g., two packs for a truck that needs range or towing capacity, etc.).  

Also, given the high cost of batteries, it could lower tha barrier to electric car adoption.  So instead of buying a car with a battery pack, consumers would basically buy a car without a battery pack, and then pay for electricity as they go (along with deposit for the battery pack).  Maybe I'm just not thinking futuristic enough on the pace of improvement of battery / charging tech, but the fundamental idea struck me as sound.  

GCrites80s
GCrites80s Reader
1/7/20 12:10 p.m.
infinitenexus said:

The Model S in Ludicrous+ mode does 0-60 in 2.28 seconds.  After experiencing that, I don't understand how anyone who enjoys cars can still complain about electric cars. 

There's probably a lot of people here who actually don't care considering that they could have gotten 300hp cars that don't handle for the same price as their 100hp cars that do.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 12:16 p.m.
dculberson said:
Tom_Spangler said:
dculberson said:

Im not aware of a single person "pushing" this tech on you any more than any other product gets pushed since they're trying to, you know, sell things. Maybe try to unwrap your feelings of being thought a bumpkin from the discussion of a car. 

I'm going to try not to patio this thread by treading lightly, but you can't say nobody is "pushing" EVs when they've enjoyed significant government incentives for quite some time. I don't think you'd see nearly as many of them around if the free market was determining demand on it's own. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, but it is a fact.

Having said that, you can obviously still buy ICE cars, keep what you have, etc.

I appreciate it your treading lightly. Honestly there have been so many tax incentives for oil and gas production but we don't spend every thread about a new gas powered car railing about those. I don't know and haven't looked into it, but I suspect the cumulative tax breaks for gas and oil eclipse those for EVs by several orders of magnitude at this point. Encouraging a new technology is also not at all equivalent to pushing them down people's throats.

The figure I read a decade or so ago is that we would have to tax gasoline/Diesel at about $5-6 per gallon to cover what it is spent to keep it flowing.

 

Granted, this is not a number that could ever be precisely pinned down because of all of the variables, but there is definitely a great enough incentive to minimize oil use (not just for economic reasons) that encouraging EV adoption makes sense.  

 

Anyway,  aren't those tax breaks gone now?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 12:35 p.m.

The tax breaks for EVs are determined by manufacturer and they only apply to a certain number of cars. Tesla has run out, GM is about to (IIRC). FCA has loads left over :) 

bcp2011 said:
Keith Tanner said:

As the EV market evolves, it'll be interesting to see if it remains analogous to the ICE market (every manufacturer has unique power trains and platforms) or if it reverts to the older coachbuilding model (a small number of manufacturers provide the power train and platform, other companies turn these into finished vehicles).

One thing I've never really understood is why BetterPlace failed.  I know next to nothing about batteries or electric motors, but the idea of creating a common battery pack that could be swapped seems like an easy solution to the issue of range, charging, etc.  Imagine, if that infrastructure is in place, which admittedly is a high hurdle, one can basically just go get battery packs like we do gas right now.  And, since it's a common pack, it could go into different vehicles with different needs (e.g., two packs for a truck that needs range or towing capacity, etc.).  

Also, given the high cost of batteries, it could lower tha barrier to electric car adoption.  So instead of buying a car with a battery pack, consumers would basically buy a car without a battery pack, and then pay for electricity as they go (along with deposit for the battery pack).  Maybe I'm just not thinking futuristic enough on the pace of improvement of battery / charging tech, but the fundamental idea struck me as sound.  

Why not standardization? Because that's not something the car industry does well. We can't even share lug nuts across all cars, and that's about as non-controversial an item you can think of. I agree that it sure would make life better for everyone but vehicle designers.

Battery swaps bring in all sorts of potential problems (what if you get a used one?), and it turns out it's not actually any faster than charging but is a whole lot more difficult to actually do. Tesla actually tried it and it turned out owners weren't actually interested. Think about what a battery swap station would look like, too - you can put a charger anywhere, but a battery swap is going to require infrastructure. 

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
1/7/20 12:44 p.m.
Gingerbeardman said:

I'm most disappointed in just how car-like it looks.

I actually like that it has car-like looks.  That's always been a thing that's bugged me about hybrids and EVs, the stylists came up with unusual styling to set them apart.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/7/20 1:01 p.m.
Ian F said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

And for me: the pure laziness of not wanting to go to a gas station once or twice a week for my DD. cheeky

I was off the last two weeks of December, so I think this morning was the first time I've put gas in the car since before Thanksgiving. cheeky

SK360
SK360 New Reader
1/7/20 1:13 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Battery swaps bring in all sorts of potential problems (what if you get a used one?), and it turns out it's not actually any faster than charging but is a whole lot more difficult to actually do. Tesla actually tried it and it turned out owners weren't actually interested. Think about what a battery swap station would look like, too - you can put a charger anywhere, but a battery swap is going to require infrastructure. 

I think everyone realized supercharging is not much more of an inconvenience.  I find supercharging breaks relaxing.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 1:14 p.m.
stuart in mn said:
Gingerbeardman said:

I'm most disappointed in just how car-like it looks.

I actually like that it has car-like looks.  That's always been a thing that's bugged me about hybrids and EVs, the stylists came up with unusual styling to set them apart.

This.  It seems like they are trying to one up each other with how butt ugly they can make a vehicle.  The first time I saw an i3 I could not believe that BMW could make something so hideous.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
1/7/20 3:23 p.m.
STM317 said:

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

How is offering a new option in a free market even close to forcing you "into the brave new world"?

Nobody is forcing anybody to buy a new vehicle at all, and if you choose to do that, nobody is forcing you to buy an electric one, especially if it's not viable for you.

I don't get why EVs are always so polarizing for people. Not all those who like EVs are liberal elites soy boys that live on the coasts, and not all EV detractors are coal rolling rubes from the middle of nowhere. They're a relatively new technology, and like any technology there are benefits and drawbacks. All any of us can do is inform ourselves about the benefits and drawbacks, assess how well they might work for our specific situation, and  make purchasing decisions accordingly.

If you have to tow a ton of weight all the time, an EV isn't currently the best option. If you drive hundreds of miles per day, an EV isn't currently the best option. If you can't charge at home, an EV isn't currently the best option. The reality is that most people don't tow tons of weight all the time. Most people drive under 50 miles per day. Most people have access to charging where they live, or at least could have it installed without much effort. The current crop of EVs is enough for most people. With more time and money the products will continue to improve and the number of cases where they're not viable will shrink. They may never be the right tool for every job, but that doesn't make them bad or threatening. More choice only benefits consumers.

The consumer options aren't forcing me/us, it's the "mandatory" requirements for the "enviro" and safety-nanny tech, which is backdooring more autonomous tech and forcing electric down our throats. Not sure if you've noticed, but you and I don't get to vote on this crap and we're not funding lobbyists to write these bills...that would be the corporations doing that.

EV's aren't new at all...the first vehicles were electric. Battery tech has gotten better, but it's still not even 75% of what ICE can do. I'm not married to any specific technology or platform, but I'm damned sure not going to give up my ability to get around because a bunch of Left Coast or East Coast urbanites are forcing a non-solution on me.

And that is the major crux for me, the teeming masses in the cities think they know what's best for the entire country, while they live in teeming E36 M3holes filled with corruption, broken infrastructure and dying industries. If they know so much, they'd be ahead of the curve, not limping along swapping interchangeable cogs.

You're making some mighty big claims there about EV fitting the majority of folks needs...I disagree, yet somehow because of my rural viewpoint and requirements, I'm the one who's wrong. The person making the claim bears the brunt of proving the assertion. I can back my points up with facts, data and opinion. laugh

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
1/7/20 3:25 p.m.
bcp2011 said:
Gingerbeardman said:

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against toys, two-wheeled, four-wheeled, or more-wheeled, nor am I racist against motive power, be it actual horse power, steam, gas, diesel or electric, nor am I a Luddite worried about newfangled tech and our robot overlords. What I am against is dreamy navel gazing and hamfisted legislative attempts to force me into the brave new world.

No way in hell am I buying an $80k "car" that I can't drive almost half the year, still forced to rely on old "dirty" ICE to get me around during the winter, because Musk and Co. didn't think about hills, cold weather, long distances between towns and actually getting work done, rather than posing for Instagram likes.

You say you're not a luddite, but... 

That's not being a Luddite...tech for tech sake doesn't help anyone. Shiny new toys doesnt' mean better new toys. If it can't do the basics of what ICE can do ALL THE TIME, it's not an equivalent.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 3:26 p.m.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

If people didn't want hybrids or EVs, they wouldn't buy them and the market would crater.  When the Model 3 was announced, people were lining up blocks-long to get the opportunity to put down a deposit.  People want them and other manufacturers are taking notice.

I'm completely unthrilled with how nobody sells small cars in the US anymore, but this is because people have voted with their dollars that they'd rather drive small trucks.  Or large trucks.  So we get what we got, because that is what is selling.

 

What I find interesting is that people used to say the automobile market was closed because of how expensive it is to start a new car company.  Now we are seeing new car companies.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
1/7/20 3:30 p.m.
mtn said:

Any of my "normal" trips (from Chicagoland) which include trips to St. Louis, the UP, Louisville, Rural Kentucky and Indiana, Ames, IA, and Ely, MN... Well, most if not all of that is through Flyover country. The biggest city I pass through on any of these trips is either Indianapolis or Milwaukee. Not exactly booming metropolis's (metropolis'? Metropoli?) 

 

Looking at the Tesla supercharger network, at most they'd take me 15 minutes longer than an ICE vehicle right now. If we include my family who drives from Evansville, IN to Chicago to pick me, then to Ely, MN, it adds about 1 hour to a 14 hour car ride.... and part of that is because we wouldn't be able to charge at the destination. I really think we can move beyond the "it won't work for too many people" schpeel, even those in flyover country... unless they're such exceptionally poor planners that they can't even get gas when their tank is on E?

I think you'll find reality doesn't match your "perfect world" scenario. It takes significantly longer to charge than to fuel up...that's if the charging station isn't blocked, which is a common occurrence. And those charging stations are not as conveniently located as fueling stations, which requires more driving, which takes more time.

Jason from Engineering Explained and the guys at Fast Lane Cars have actually done some really good videos about Tesla road and stress tests, and they own them...they do a better job of showing the actual pitfalls, rather than just fanboying.

Gingerbeardman
Gingerbeardman Reader
1/7/20 3:33 p.m.

This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.


Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/7/20 3:34 p.m.
Gingerbeardman said:
bcp2011 said:
Gingerbeardman said:

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against toys, two-wheeled, four-wheeled, or more-wheeled, nor am I racist against motive power, be it actual horse power, steam, gas, diesel or electric, nor am I a Luddite worried about newfangled tech and our robot overlords. What I am against is dreamy navel gazing and hamfisted legislative attempts to force me into the brave new world.

No way in hell am I buying an $80k "car" that I can't drive almost half the year, still forced to rely on old "dirty" ICE to get me around during the winter, because Musk and Co. didn't think about hills, cold weather, long distances between towns and actually getting work done, rather than posing for Instagram likes.

You say you're not a luddite, but... 

That's not being a Luddite...tech for tech sake doesn't help anyone. Shiny new toys doesnt' mean better new toys. If it can't do the basics of what ICE can do ALL THE TIME, it's not an equivalent.

The trick is, we are finding that for a lot of people, what an ICE can do is not really necessary.

 

Lemme tell you a story.  When I started working where I do, the kid here said "How can he be any good, he doesn't have a truck!".  I said well, I don't need a truck except for maybe once every other year, it makes no sense for me to compromise the other 40-50,000 miles I will drive in that time just for an outlier condition.  I drive 20 miles to work and 20 miles back, I never haul anything that I can't carry on a 4' trailer.  So he said, "But you don't have a truck!  How can you work on cars if you don't have a truck?"

 

EVs won't be an equivalent.  For a lot of people (no not everyone, but a lot) they don't need an equivalent.

 

 

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