Move over Tesla, it’s the Sony Vision-S

mtn said:

(A) Noody is dismissing the edge cases. But Barrow is an edge case for just about anything other than a snowmobile and a 4 wheeler. Most of the contiguous 48 would be served fine with an EV, so it is annoying and pointless when folks come in here to state it won't work because of XYZ. I'm pretty sure that Walt Longmire, or at least one of his deputies would have been fine with one out in Wyoming... Isn't that the most sparsley populated state? (Currently binge watching the show... not bad!)

There are areas near me where snowmobiles and Snowcats are pretty much a necessity to access.

Like I've said, but has been ignored, I'm fine with EV's and hybrids, I just don't think they're a full-blown substitute for ICE right now, for most of the people I know and work with. 

Technically since Walt Longmire works in a fictional county that is more closely associated with J.H. than anywhere else in Wyoming, I'm sure he would rock a Tesla. 

Yes we are the smallest population as a state, we don't even have 500K according to the last census. I honestly doubt we'll ever crack it with mining and energy development going the way of the dinosaur...closest we ever got was in the 70's.

In reply to alfadriver :

The gist I get when I hear about Tesla the automaker is that they're working on the "tech industry" model - roll out frequent changes, don't support older vehicles, keep everything proprietary.

Which is another reason why I can't wait to see what established automakers can do.

Keith Tanner said:

You might be surprised that some of the other folks you're arguing with work in the real world as well. I've worked in the Canadian Arctic, servicing communites like Barrow. I live in a small town in Colorado. I own a big diesel truck. I don't own any yoga pants and I don't shop at Starbucks unless I'm stuck in an airport and I'm desperate for something to eat.

The Rover used batteries. RTGs were used by other items on the Apollo missions, but the Rover did not. It was a pure EV, basically a golf cart. And trying to transport combustibles so that you could run a ICE in that environment would have been absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not so daft as to suggest that other folks don't work in the real world. You just don't see Teslas on mine sites or rig sites. And I've never seen one being used at any of our ski resorts, even when some folks who use them go there. And until I see OFT trade jacked-up Cummins for a Cybertruck, I don't think I'm likely to investigate their utility until the battery tech takes another giant leap forward.

Some people would argue that riding a tube filled with liquid rocket fuel and lighting the wick is kinda ridiculous, regardless of how necessary to accomplish the task it is. 

In reply to Knurled. :

They are already out.  Just not making headlnes.  And they are more sorted systems.  That goes both for EVs and autonomy.

The fact that nobody hears anything about it does say a lot.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

I, too, don't see the physics of the batteries that everyone else here sees.  But it's not worth a huge debate about it- just let the market deal with it.  There's no way a real mandate will work- too many nurf toss problems surrounding that.  At the moment at least.

But there are enough people here that think it will happen, and they are welcome to that opinion.

One thing I get conviced every day on, though, Tesla is not the answer.  When it comes to a fully sorted product, they let the consumer do way too much of it relative to every other OEM out there.  So while Tesla enjoys headlines, it won't be able to maintain the masses.  

Still- it's not worth getting into a massive argument about it.  Time will always tell.

Whew, I was beginning to think I was about to be trussed up in a straight jacket and jabbed in the neck with thorazine. 

I wasn't really aiming for an argument (to be honest, this is pretty vanilla compared to some of the conversations I have at work as normal course of business...) just voicing my opinion with some facts smattered in. 

All that being said, I agree with you, which will prolly make you pretty unpopular once someone reads that...

Gingerbeardman said:

Keith Tanner said:

You might be surprised that some of the other folks you're arguing with work in the real world as well. I've worked in the Canadian Arctic, servicing communites like Barrow. I live in a small town in Colorado. I own a big diesel truck. I don't own any yoga pants and I don't shop at Starbucks unless I'm stuck in an airport and I'm desperate for something to eat.

The Rover used batteries. RTGs were used by other items on the Apollo missions, but the Rover did not. It was a pure EV, basically a golf cart. And trying to transport combustibles so that you could run a ICE in that environment would have been absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not so daft as to suggest that other folks don't work in the real world. You just don't see Teslas on mine sites or rig sites. And I've never seen one being used at any of our ski resorts, even when some folks who use them go there. And until I see OFT trade jacked-up Cummins for a Cybertruck, I don't think I'm likely to investigate their utility until the battery tech takes another giant leap forward.

Some people would argue that riding a tube filled with liquid rocket fuel and lighting the wick is kinda ridiculous, regardless of how necessary to accomplish the task it is. 

About mine sites - that's actually one place you're seeing EVs. Electric trucks make life a lot more pleasant underground because they're not belching exhaust. No Teslas, big trucks. And there's one really crazy edge case - there's one that is used to transport rocks down a mountain. It uses regenerative braking, and produces enough energy on the way down with a full load to drive back up empty. It's a brilliant trick, really. It's effectively being powered by the potential energy of the rocks.  

It could be argued that more people are transported at ski resorts by electricity than by any other means of propulsion, but that would just be being goofy :)

Keith Tanner said:

About mine sites - that's actually one place you're seeing EVs. Electric trucks make life a lot more pleasant underground because they're not belching exhaust. No Teslas, big trucks. And there's one really crazy edge case - there's one that is used to transport rocks down a mountain. It uses regenerative braking, and produces enough energy on the way down with a full load to drive back up empty. It's a brilliant trick, really. It's effectively being powered by the potential energy of the rocks.  

It could be argued that more people are transported at ski resorts by electricity than by any other means of propulsion, but that would just be being goofy :)

I'm glad you brought that up, actually. I didn't include haulers, locomotives or drag-lines because they aren't exactly consumer-grade offerings.

My step-dad drives haul truck at a gypsum mine locally, and they've got one electric rig that only the most senior operator gets to drive...it's the Cadillac of haul trucks and even when the roads are slick, it maintains traction due to wheelspeed sensors and regenerative braking. You can only imagine how ugly a site it is to watch the ass-end of a haul truck come around while going downhill...especially when those massive wheels broadside the embankment. Tipping over when you're sitting 20ft. in the air must be a gut-wrenching feeling!

And I'm well aware of the utility of electrical power, but those ski-lifts aren't being powered by batteries, they're grid-tied and hardwired. My field is specialty tools for energy development, with some mining tools thrown in the mix. I design, repair, rebuild and manufacture tooling using machine tools and liaise with engineers and operators to work on improvements. I couldn't do what I do without grid-tied electrical power.

Knurled. said:

In reply to alfadriver :

The gist I get when I hear about Tesla the automaker is that they're working on the "tech industry" model - roll out frequent changes, don't support older vehicles, keep everything proprietary.

 

Which is another reason why I can't wait to see what established automakers can do.

I don't know where that opinion comes from! Tesla recently put out an upgrade program for the original Roadster. They continue to roll out updates for their older cars. Compare that to Ford where parts for some 10 year old cars are discontinued and NLA! Seems to me that Tesla supports their old cars better than some of the "established automakers" do. 

dculberson said:

And Gingerbeardman, this has been a bit of an epic tantrum to read. "Relaxed" does not even begin to apply. 

Meh, if you think this is me being excited or throwing a tantrum, you wouldn't want to be within range when I actually get upset. I didn't even get into K-5 level ball-busting or shave your nuts for being late a 2nd time this week.

You'll know when I'm actually upset, because I won't engage. Or worse, your at the table when I flip it before walking away.

Gingerbeardman said:

dculberson said:

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

You have to admit that Wyoming is kind of an extreme case though. The entire state's population is lower than the county I live in - one of 88 in Ohio! Outside of edge cases I think long range electrics do work for eating up miles as long as you can charge daily. And the situation is only getting better. I doubt it went this quickly for gas cars when they were new. 

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against toys, two-wheeled, four-wheeled, or more-wheeled, nor am I racist against motive power, be it actual horse power, steam, gas, diesel or electric, nor am I a Luddite worried about newfangled tech and our robot overlords. What I am against is dreamy navel gazing and hamfisted legislative attempts to force me into the brave new world.

Not sure you know what the word racist really means lol

Gingerbeardman said:

I'm not so daft as to suggest that other folks don't work in the real world.

Dude, you literally accused the man of working in a world of rainbows and unicorns. 

Gingerbeardman said:

You just don't see Teslas on mine sites or rig sites.

Most people prefer not to use $90k luxury cars as work trucks, but I can confirm that you absolutely can do just that.

yupididit said:

Not sure you know what the word racist really means lol

I know what it should mean...someone who races 

white_fly said:

Dude, you literally accused the man of working in a world of rainbows and unicorns. 

Most people prefer not to use $90k luxury cars as work trucks, but I can confirm that you absolutely can do just that.

Not how I meant it, though I think perspective should be objective not subjective. But you have to admit rainbows and unicorns would be better than sage flats, bentonite fields and roughnecks in the middle of Bufu.

And I give you props, that is cool AF! 

Gingerbeardman said:

yupididit said:

Not sure you know what the word racist really means lol

I know what it should mean...someone who races 

Riiiiight

dculberson said:

Knurled. said:

In reply to alfadriver :

The gist I get when I hear about Tesla the automaker is that they're working on the "tech industry" model - roll out frequent changes, don't support older vehicles, keep everything proprietary.

 

Which is another reason why I can't wait to see what established automakers can do.

I don't know where that opinion comes from! Tesla recently put out an upgrade program for the original Roadster. They continue to roll out updates for their older cars. Compare that to Ford where parts for some 10 year old cars are discontinued and NLA! Seems to me that Tesla supports their old cars better than some of the "established automakers" do. 

 

From a view of inside the industry- I would consider those hidden recalls.  Which still happen for old cars.

And it it was not a safety issue, then my point about letting the consumer do the development is pretty valid.  

Also, I really don't see Tesla actually stocking parts any longer than they have to for the old cars.  Takes up space and costs money- which is why there's a legal limit to supplying parts to old cars.  Unless you are aware of free storage all over the country.

Elon is going to figure out someday that the nominal average consumer isn't going to be happy with how their model works, and Toyota is going to sweep in and just gobble up all the angry consumers.  That's been their game plan since I've been alive.  Every once in a while, another OEM will make some products that will do that too, but that's realistically Toyota's plan.

I'm a very mixed feeling on this "Sony Car" idea, both from the standpoint of the manufacturer AND the fact that it won't get built. It's not the problem that some of these companies are hoping to build awesome prototypes (like Rivian) in the hopes of being picked up and funded by an OEM- because that can work EXTREMELY WELL- but it's that I don't know if this is just another "Huh, what if?" car that comes out that doesn't force competition to push EVs even further ahead.

Sony is also a company I would never purchase a car from- they are DRM happy and like their games, would probably label cars as "transportation as a service" to try and bleed more cash out of the consumer.

Gingerbeardman said:

This I can wholeheartedly agree with. I'm not anti-EV or improved efficiency or anti-environment. I'm pro-choice, not pro-you-tell-me-what-my-choice-is-and-I-accept-it-or-go-without. 

Not "Anti-environment"? But you said on the first page (and I quote):

Gingerbeardman said:

wind turbines to assuage the guilt of those bleating fascist "environmentalists" living elsewhere, so they can shift their tailpipe emissions downrange. Ever heard of line-losses? 

Emphasis mine. Let's be frank- you're threatened by electirc cars because renewables are far cheaper and only GETTING cheaper than petroleum products currently and it has begun affecting your line of work. It would be one thing for you to speak about your own personal fears of this- but calling people's desire to have a cleaner environment "facism"? Do you know what facism is?

Unless you're gonna start with some EBSCOhost papers to prove... whatever point you have, I ssuggest you lurk moar.

In reply to Gingerbeardman :

Ironically, I'm the resident environmentalist.  

But that's also my specialty.  And it's not that I don't like EVs- I just have not seen the realistic path for the numbers people think will happen.  Mostly related to battery issues.

It's amusing that people take this discussion so seriously as if it needs to be decided right now.  It's going to be at least 20 years before we know the answer.  And by then, there can be some serious developments made in all aspects of personal transportation.  And then many, many more decades until ICE's could be 100% removed from the road after that.  

Although, my numbers could be very wrong.  We will see.

One thing I do know, everything that makes EV's better also makes hybrids better.  

alfadriver said:  

Also, I really don't see Tesla actually stocking parts any longer than they have to for the old cars.  Takes up space and costs money- which is why there's a legal limit to supplying parts to old cars.  Unless you are aware of free storage all over the country.

Well I've heard that there's lots of space we're not using "properly" out here in the hinterlands, and we're not really people since there's so few of us, so maybe we should just turn my state into a giant storage shed. 

Suggestion: stay away from purposefully inflammatory language like "fanboy" or "worshipping at the altar of Musk". It tends to imply closed-mindedness. Ranting about yoga pants and Starbucks doesn't help either. It's funny if you're talking about sports teams because nobody has an open mind about sports teams, but it doesn't lend itself to good discussion otherwise. Especially not online where you can't punch your buddy in the shoulder and yuk it up because you both know you're joking.

As for the infrastructure - I think it could be argued that there is a better infrastructure out there for charging EVs than there is for refuelling ICE vehicles. I can charge an EV right here at work, but I have to drive 5 miles to fill a gas tank. A lot of EVs come with a charger in the trunk, so all you need to do is find an electrical outlet with the right electropressure behind it.

and back to the Sony car......

I would bet that Sony is working on Batteries and Controllers and the only reason the car is there is to display Sony products , 

The $$$$$$ is in batteries and controllers , and maybe an interesting motor design ,  

EVs are less than 1% of USA sales ,  even if its 20% in 5 years  there is still room for ICE cars.....

CES show will have a lot of EV news thru the week......

Gingerbeardman said:

alfadriver said:  

Also, I really don't see Tesla actually stocking parts any longer than they have to for the old cars.  Takes up space and costs money- which is why there's a legal limit to supplying parts to old cars.  Unless you are aware of free storage all over the country.

Well I've heard that there's lots of space we're not using "properly" out here in the hinterlands, and we're not really people since there's so few of us, so maybe we should just turn my state into a giant storage shed. 

They have to pay tax on stock.  So if they have something for ten years, it cost them ten times in taxes.

This is generally why manufacturers ratchet the price of old stock up as it gets older.  The longer it sits on a shelf, the more expensive it is for them.

Knurled. said:

They have to pay tax on stock.  So if they have something for ten years, it cost them ten times in taxes.

 

This is generally why manufacturers ratchet the price of old stock up as it gets older.  The longer it sits on a shelf, the more expensive it is for them.

So you're saying I should do it...my state could use some tax revenue. 

Oh wait...we don't pay state taxes, only a sales tax.