The BMW and Ford DP's don't look ANYTHING like anything on the street. There were FAR more people at Daytona than Sebring this year.
The BMW and Ford DP's don't look ANYTHING like anything on the street. There were FAR more people at Daytona than Sebring this year.
colganc wrote: If Grand Am rules are adopted it will die. Grand Am has very few fans. ALMS has some fans at least. Spec series don't attract fans. Every time it is tried the series starts dieing. Something similar happened with CART and IRL. Look at it now. Nothing.
If that were really true, Grand Am would have died a LONG time ago. Especially after the first year of DP when they didn't even win the 24 hrs of Daytona. "Purists" seem to favor the tech in ALMS, but the fans don't seem to really care to see fast cars get beat up badly at LeMans thanks to the rules.
But DP are not a spec series. Grand Am GT cars are not spec (and tube cars are going away, too). And the ACO can't figure out what it wants for a future. Maybe, just maybe, the future rules for LeMans (which are going to require HUGE improvements to fuel economy) may make sense for Gran Am. Who knows.
But funny about Sports cars vs. IRL/CART- Grand Am and ALMS have survived pretty well, whereas CART just went away and IRL won.
Maroon92 wrote: The average fan doesn't give two E36 M3s about whether or not a series is "spec". As much as they may be to you, the cars are NOT the stars. The drivers are the stars.
I couldn't disagree more. Racing has always been about both. Fans and enthusiasts identify with brands and also have favorite drivers. Why do people park in the "Porsche Paddock" at races? Why is the line so long to get Corvette driver autographs? Why are DP and Cup cars changing to have more connection with their brand's road cars?
It's only about drivers in spec series because that's all they've got. 50% as interesting as real racing.
alfadriver wrote: But funny about Sports cars vs. IRL/CART- Grand Am and ALMS have survived pretty well, whereas CART just went away and IRL won.
I respectfully disagree about IRL "winning" Indycar racing. As expressed by Tony George at the beginning of the split, if IRL had been successful, Indycar would currently resemble the USAC series in the 1950s-60s. Ovals, feeder systems through Sprint Cars, US natives the majority of drivers, etc. I was on CART's side of that argument, I've frequently described the end of the Indycar split as "our schedule, their cars. And oh yah..Indy's back on the schedule.." 
I'm hoping a merger won't be the same nightmare as a split..and honestly, I think this whole thing is a ripple from the latest nonsense between the FIA and the ACO.
In reply to Argo1:
DP cars are not spec. Neither are their GT cars.
I'm a bit floored by this, but totally excited.
Two cents time!: Three classes (in order of cost/speed):
LMP: I don't care whether its LMP1, LMP2, or whatever, but it needs to be fairly open competition, and go to Le Mans.
DP: Keep it as-is. Cost-capped, Pro-Am friendly, close competition (yes that means keep it close to spec).
GT: Come up with a good equivalency formula for the two series' GT cars and then leave it alone. These are by far the healthiest classes in both series, like close to 30 cars if you combined the two....
^^^ I agree in principle with Jamesc2123 and having the three classes would make for a great event. However, there are some challenges to that approach. If we look at the class lap times comparing the classes on tracks that both series currently run there are issues.
The LMP classes are quite a bit faster than DP (1:13s to 1:20s at Mid Ohio, and 1:55s to 2:04s at Road America) which is no problem and as it should be making the LeMans eligible cars fastest.
The DP cars lap at almost exactly the same as the ALMS GT2 cars (1:20s at MO, and 2:04s at RA). That isn't the end of the world but does make for congestion and traffic interfering with class battles. The solution would be to relax engine regs on the DP cars to speed them up.
The real problem is Grand Am GT vs. GT2. There is a huge speed gap and major rule differences (tube frame cars vs. production based, etc.) The GT cars are about 5 seconds per lap slower at MId Ohio and 12 seconds slower at RA. The rules for GT2 cannot be messed with as that class provides the majority of US based teams at LeMans. GT2 provides such great racing and has so much factory support that it would make sense just to phase out the Grand Am GT class. The only other solution would be running as a 4th class but then field capacity becomes a problem. You can't really split the prototypes and GT cars into there own races because you can't run Daytona, Sebring, and Petit twice, nor do you want to exclude the GT's unless just the Grand AM GTs are run as their own series.
I don't like the idea of splitting up the P and the GT cars, that is a large part of the "feel" of the whole thing. I think I would consolidate the P car classes, maybe keep P1 have the DP cars as the next lower class replacing P2. Then use the ALMS GT class and adopt FIA GT3 cars instead of the GTC cars. I would think the GA GT cars could either be upgraded to ALMS GT or built to the GT3 spec.
Whatever happens I just want some kind of endurance racing to survive and come to Mid Ohio.
I didn't realize the speed difference between ALMS and Grand-Am GT was so high, thanks for the info Argo. Still, I think it could be done, as all classes in pretty much both series are managed via engine restrictors and ballast so there is a large amount of adjustability. Make it temporary as you phase out one set of cars and/or morph into a new GT formula.
Both series have something to offer. ALMS has more innvation (though less and less these days...) some of the best GT class racing on earth and (to me at least) the all important link to Le Mans.
Grand am has closer competition, larger fields per class, and is much easier to follow.
Create a best of both worlds series, and not just unceremoniously dismantle the ALMS a la IRL/CART, and we could have one of the best racing series we've seen in a long time.
In reply to Jamesc2123:
You are right in line with my thinking on the P1, P2, and DP cars.
The deal with the GT cars from both series, is like Agro said would not allow the cars to blend well. My thinking is merge ALMS GTC and Grand Am GT into one class as the cars are more similar than the ALMS/LMS GT2 cars. The ALMS GTC series is kind of a joke right now anyways and the Grand Am GT field is pretty awesome. There would be absolutely no reason to berk with the GT2 as it is some incredible racing every event.
Talking more about it with my friends last night, I came up with a pretty decent way to have Grand AM host the show and work with WEC and the ACO. If the classes were broken down into LMP1, LMP2, DP, GT2, GTC/GAGT it would make for great racing in the Grand Am/ALMS US racing. Then when it came time for WEC events like Road Atlanta, Sebring, and if they added Daytona, they would be stand alone points for the WEC because not everyone running in the merger will have a spot at these events. They could run a DP and GTC field as an exhibition category that could have limited spots as to not reduce the number of ELMS teams that can come over. The spots would be rewarded to teams based on regular season points much like the WEC allows for Petit, Sebring, or Le Mans.
And anyone that went to the Rolex 24 this years knows that there were a E36 M3 ton of people there. Sebring was pretty packed as well.
David S. Wallens wrote:Ranger50 wrote:Totally true. Unfortunately if I say any more a black SUV will roll up in my driveway, and that would be my last post.David S. Wallens wrote: For what it's worth, I know of at least one of the top, top NASCAR official who digs road racing.UNPOSSIBLE!!!!
a different user name and sig. ... post as much as you want ... then just disappear into the endless expanse of the ethernet 
As I once posted about the future of Road Atlanta, it all depended on the patience and pocketbook of Dr Panoz. ALMS is the same. He got caught up in the FIA politics and may have decided to just get out.
In reply to whenry:
That could be the other side of it.
Got an email from Grand Am saying tune in tomorrow Sept 5 at 10 am on speed or grand-am.com. "Sports Car Racing in North America: See the Future"
I heard a rumor tonight that NASCAR may be buying Road Atlanta. If that is the case, Dr. Panoz could very well be selling out. While I think that is great for Road Atlanta and probably Lainer Speedway's future, I may be a little less than optimistic for Petit or the 12 hours of Sebring.
Daytona Prototypes are slower at Road American than club racing F1000.
Don't bother to ask my why I don't care about Grand Am.
Anti-stance wrote: I heard a rumor tonight that NASCAR may be buying Road Atlanta. If that is the case, Dr. Panoz could very well be selling out. While I think that is great for Road Atlanta and probably Lainer Speedway's future, I may be a little less than optimistic for Petit or the 12 hours of Sebring.
The Daytona Motorsports Group purchased the entirety of the Panoz Motorsports Group. I don't believe that includes the car manufacturing company, but it should include both Rd. Atlanta and Sebring.
I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords...
I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords...
Or, from Demolition Man, "All restaurants are Taco Bell..."
I don't care what you guys think. After seeing the Busch Series at Road America and up in Canada and seeing the Cup race at Watkins, I would WELCOME a Busch race at Road Atlanta!
In reply to DukeOfUndersteer:
After seeing the Historic Stockcars thundering down the back straight during the Mitty . . . I agree with the THIS!!
That, and watching them come through turn 5 lifting their front left wheel up. Its awesome!!!
So the net is LESS race teams, right? or do you think everybody will be able to play in the new playground
cwaters wrote: So the net is LESS race teams, right? or do you think everybody will be able to play in the new playground
Just looking at Petit last year, some teams were sent home for failing to qualify for the available pit stalls. So I think pit stalls and room on the track are going to be the limiting factor in these races. Unless the break it up in to prototypes in one race and GTs in another.
DukeOfUndersteer wrote: I don't care what you guys think. After seeing the Busch Series at Road America and up in Canada and seeing the Cup race at Watkins, I would WELCOME a Busch race at Road Atlanta!
My experience couldn't have been more different. Went to the NASCAR Nationwide (formerly Busch) race at Road America in 2010. It was too expensive and too crowded, especially for the quality of racing provided. The vintage races at RA provided not just more bang for the buck, but more bang period. Even my wife commented on the lack of excitement sitting by turn 5, of all places, as the NASCARs mostly lumbered and understeered through the corner...Maybe after a few years running there, they've actually figured out how to better set up the cars for the track now, and provide for a bit more entertaining spectator experience.
Of course each lap under caution takes a lot longer and is far more boring than on some little oval where you at least got to see the 'action' which caused it, and racing can resume shortly after the track is cleared. We ended up leaving about 20 minutes into the red flag session. Maybe you went to this years race though, where it took them 35 fewer minutes than in 2010, they managed to get their average speed up by 17mph to a whopping 85mph, and they only ran 16% of the laps under caution vs 28% of the laps.
That being said, NASCAR in of itself is not all bad and certainly knows how to build a fan base and bring the popularity more mainstream, even if it is at the expense of some purists sense of propriety. If they have their hands in this cookie jar too, and can actually work some of that same magic on the actual ALMS/Grand-Am duo, I certainly wouldn't complain.
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