NASCAR is fine, let's fix the real mess... NHRA!!

As was pointed out in the other thread, it's drag racing that sucks. Well, not drag racing but certainly NHRA's interpretation of it.

First, bring back the full 1/4 mile, NOBODY races 1,000 feet!

Next the classes need fixing, let's start at the top with Top Fuel. It's time to go back to the wild days and let them run whatever they want on the motor. Forget Roots supercharging, lets bring out the twin-screws, turbochargers, and even centifugals. No limits! But they'll go too fast you say, no problem! While stock blocks would be fun, they wouldn't last, so bring the cubic inches down from 500 to 400 and require stock head castings (that they can then port, modify, bigger valves, etc). That means you'd see some LS-headed monsters or even the return of a Ford Cammer motor (only this time as a DOHC). That would bring the power back down sufficiently, and the other thing to get the speeds down is shorten the wheelbase up.

Now, Funny Car, obviously the engine rules need to mimic TF, but we can't shorten them up any more, so let's go back to the days when they pulled body molds off of production cars before hacking. Let them extend the nose, say 12", and add lower skirts and the rear spoiler. Honestly, this class would be a fun place to let the factory blower motors go at it with unlimited rules. Think about Hellcat Challengers running ZL1 Camaros and GT500 Mustangs all with the blowers hanging out of the top. Oh who are we kidding, funny car has nothing to do with regular cars! Let them run the old vintage bodies! There we go, that's MUCH better.

Pro Stock they've actually been working on. EFI this year and no scoop is a big plus, but the class is still way too bizarre. Now here is where we could have fun with stock blocks and heads, but let's allow boosted stuff in. Who wouldn't want to see an AWD GT-R face down a GT350R Mustang? Keep the tube chassis and the Lencos, that's fine.

Now, let's bring Super Stock back up to the Big Leagues, but use all of the new factory drag cars. People are paying big money to see Cobra Jets, Drag Packs, and COPO's go at it, so let them go at it!

If you want "successful" drag racing, just look at the twice/yr "Lights Out" races... This past weekend, they shut the gates because they were over facility capacity for spectators at $25/head/day......

https://www.facebook.com/grsmotorsport/videos/965356250185641/ <--drone video of the crowd on Saturday...

Ditch the Lencos. I want to see the ghost of Ronnie Sox live again.

Top fuel and funny car Get 3-4 engines for the year, That's it. Blow it up, break it and you're done. Not only would you limit total cost, make engine tuning paramount, and make it a bit of a gamble. See the guys who saved their engines get set on kill for the last race of the year.

The only reason to go to an NHRA meet is to see (and hear/feel) the 10,000 horsepower launches. Reducing engine output will make it like watching Top Alcohol ,or worse the Sportman classes. Watching Sportsman cars do that stutter-step at 60 feet to hit the index is really poor entertainment, and it's not proper drag racing.

Towards the end of the 1320 for Top Fuel, they were running 330 mph. Now they're running 330 at 1,000 feet. It would be stupidly unsafe to ever go back to a full 1/4 mile without some engine modifications or other serious overhaul. Go to 350 cubic inch and let them run 100% nitro. I am all for Funny Car bodies going back to something more like what they ran in the mid 70s. The bodies they're running now are ridiculous. They don't resemble any kind of car I've ever seen. A lot of what Javelin mentions is probably one of the big attractions of Pro Mod racing. Right now Pro Mods are my favorite form of drag racing. Engine rules are pretty wide open and the bodies resemble something you'd see on the street, but wildly changed for drag racing.

ncjay wrote:

Quoted for truth and awesomeness.

To fix NHRA all you have to do is add a chicane at the 1000 foot mark.

In the past an idea was thrown out there to make them do a U turn and race back to where they started.

just ignore the nhra races and watch stuff like lights out. small tire stock suspension cars, big tire cars. its all there.

OK, Jav, you asked for it:

Dale Armstrong, who has a pretty good handle on things, suggested the compression ratio as the limiting factor:

http://competitionplus.com/featured-stories/6566-dale-armstrong-interview-the-best-plan-for-slowing-top-fuel-dragsters-and

I think it's a good idea, but I think I like another one also.

Keep the motors the same. Increase the frontal area. By a lot. A less aerodynamic car would accelerate slower and have a lower top speed, but also the added benefit of slowing down faster. The noise, engine package, and immediate acceleration would stay as hilariously high as it is now.

Tire width would also slow them down, both narrower in the rear and wider in the front.

As far as Pro Stock, I really really like Pro Stock. I like the idea, but with actual stock bodied cars, just clones, they can be carbon or whatever, but must be the exact shape and size of the cars on the road, though a spoiler and splitter may be added to aid downforce. I also think the engines need to be stock blocks with whatever the OEM's are putting in their cars, allow backdating for five years, and allow swapping within that same OEM but only NA. Stock blocks, stock heads. Anything else goes within the current ruleset. I don't care what engine management you want. FI versus a Dominator? Fine. I am betting that a good data guy and a good engineer can slap some instrumentation on every car to check for traction control.

For the Sportsman leagues... no more throttle stops ever. I was bored like crazy watching those in person, on TV with no commentator, it's awful. It's a neat technique and it's a neat idea, but it's time to leave that behind.

OK< time for the worst bit. The show sucks. It's awful. In real life, it's a fantastic day at the race track. On TV, it's lost. The TV show is half hour long. Each show is one class, with a commentator like Mike Dunn (I know he is gone to IHRA) and one in the pits. Beginning to end, let's see how TFD did. The next show is TFC, etc... In car camaras, split screens, driver interviews, footage from between rounds, this is perfect and needs to stay. Unfortunately, an hour of watching the tractor scrubbing the track is not cool, and the average viewer doesn't understand why we're interviewing a Pro Stock driver during the Funny Car semifinals.

what i continually hear is us discussing the gap between racing that we can do and what the top end of the sport does.. There seems to be a disconnect in every form of racing...

I feel like that disconnect is probably much smaller with drag racing, especially in the age of the "junkyard LS with a Chinese turbo".

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: what i continually hear is us discussing the gap between racing that we can do and what the top end of the sport does.. There seems to be a disconnect in every form of racing...

You'll never be at the top end unless you're a pro. Don't try to dumb down the elite so that weekend warriors can perform at that level. We need the top end of the sport.

You want to go up against the upper end? Run the Thunderhill 25 hour. You'll probably get your butt kicked, but you might get pitted beside an honest Le Mans team.

As for drag racing, I got nothin'. All I know is what I read in Hot Rod when I subscribed, and that can be summed up as "the 60's were awesome and we made it happen".

In reply to Keith Tanner: I get it. But the gap between what a pro runs vs an amateur is great. Never greater than now and it'll keep growing. I think that people get pissed about things when they can't relate them to something they can do themselves. That is all. In the 60's and 70's top teams in Nhra and nascar started out as smaller built in nearly a home garage type affair. Now my salary would barely cover the weekend expenses of a racing team. Progress is progress. Just trying to explain where the rage is coming from.

The jump EFI in Pro Stock was a good idea but the NHRA botched it. Instead of saying they just had to have EFI and it had to fit under the hood, then watching what crazy stuff people made (Cross ram with twin throttle bodies, anyone?), they said you have to use X throttle body and Y intake manifold and Z inlet duct.

They need to make Pro Mod and Comp Eliminator more visible, rather than using them as filler material during qualifying day and between elimination rounds. Those two are where the real creativity is and Pro Mod cars tend to be easier to relate to and much hairier to watch.

Don Garlits had several suggestions on how to fix Top Fuel. First, go back to 1,000 feet. Second, make them take the big wings off the back. Third, limit tire size (You can make all the power in the world, but it don't matter if you can't put it down. Makes it easier for some of the smaller teams to run with, say, Tony Schumacher) And Fourth, limit engine teardowns. You want to go out there and run the Hail Mary tune in qualifying, go ahead, but if you blow the engine up, sorry pal.

The only drag racing that is interesting to me right now is Drag Week. I imagine it will get boring eventually but the yearly increases in speed for most all of the classes is amazing. Clearly a lot of that is 'street' cars getting closer and closer to proper race cars, but it's still fun to watch.
I personally like stock wheelbase stock appearing body drag racing most of the time. Pro mod or outlaw 10.5 cars are as far as my interest levels can go.

mazdeuce wrote: The only drag racing that is interesting to me right now is Drag Week. I imagine it will get boring eventually but the yearly increases in speed for most all of the classes is amazing. Clearly a lot of that is 'street' cars getting closer and closer to proper race cars, but it's still fun to watch. I personally like stock wheelbase stock appearing body drag racing most of the time. Pro mod or outlaw 10.5 cars are as far as my interest levels can go.

Drag week is awesome but also makes me mad. They make me want to daily drive one of those top cars just for fun. Of course, they are a few multiples of the cost of my house, so that's the irritating part.

In reply to tuna55:

That's the pro side of it that I don't mind. It's stupid money, but all racing at the top end of any game is. At least these poor buggers have to live with their decisions for a week.

mazdeuce wrote: In reply to tuna55: That's the pro side of it that I don't mind. It's stupid money, but all racing at the top end of any game is. At least these poor buggers have to live with their decisions for a week.

So, what you're saying is that we should enter together after building one of those cars?

I can dig.

I'm in. Probably going to need to be a pro-mod full size van considering where we both are in life.

tuna55 wrote:

mazdeuce wrote: The only drag racing that is interesting to me right now is Drag Week. I imagine it will get boring eventually but the yearly increases in speed for most all of the classes is amazing. Clearly a lot of that is 'street' cars getting closer and closer to proper race cars, but it's still fun to watch. I personally like stock wheelbase stock appearing body drag racing most of the time. Pro mod or outlaw 10.5 cars are as far as my interest levels can go.

Drag week is awesome but also makes me mad. They make me want to daily drive one of those top cars just for fun. Of course, they are a few multiples of the cost of my house, so that's the irritating part.

Yeah, the cost in Unlimited is ludicrous. I remember Hot Rod asked Tom Bailey what he had in the original Project Sick Seconds and he said "We stopped counting at $250 grand. We could've had a real nice house for what we have in the car."

I'm going to go against the grain on this one and say that what Top Fuel needs to do is cut horsepower by like 25%. The biggest problem I have with the TF races is that its so rare to see both cars make a full pull at the same time. Tires don't hook and clutches get overpowered, and one of the cars don't make it down the track. Back the power off enough that it is more like 90% likely to have a good run. That would make it better IMO.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: I get it. But the gap between what a pro runs vs an amateur is great. Never greater than now and it'll keep growing. I think that people get pissed about things when they can't relate them to something they can do themselves. That is all. In the 60's and 70's top teams in Nhra and nascar started out as smaller built in nearly a home garage type affair. Now my salary would barely cover the weekend expenses of a racing team. Progress is progress. Just trying to explain where the rage is coming from.

The problem is that the top end keeps getting better, and amateurs are still amateurs. We have the same problem trying to put cars in run groups at track days - the fast guys get faster, but the novices are still novices. This is what happens with dedication and effort.

I don't get the "unsafe" argument. If you don't want to get in the car: don't. Nobody is forced to race against their will. If the point of Top Fuel is to get down the track as fast as possible then I think they should be able to do just that and if they hit 400 mph, then I guess they need to figure out a way to make it survivable of nobody will strap into one.

So IMHO to overhaul it I say go back to 1/4 mile and let the engineers go crazy. The 60's were cool for drag racing cause people tried different things (multiple engines, dually tires, different cockpit placements, etc) Get back to that, strap rockets to the back, have active wings to keep them on the ground, whatever but get back to being creative and innovative. It's all just a big show so make it entertaining.

Same with NASCAR, if they can lap Daytona at 250, cool. Figure it out and embrace speed, artificial limits seem counter to "crucible of motorsport" as JC puts it.

KyAllroad wrote: I don't get the "unsafe" argument. If you don't want to get in the car: don't. Nobody is forced to race against their will. If the point of Top Fuel is to get down the track as fast as possible then I think they should be able to do just that and if they hit 400 mph, then I guess they need to figure out a way to make it survivable of nobody will strap into one. So IMHO to overhaul it I say go back to 1/4 mile and let the engineers go crazy. The 60's were cool for drag racing cause people tried different things (multiple engines, dually tires, different cockpit placements, etc) Get back to that, strap rockets to the back, have active wings to keep them on the ground, whatever but get back to being creative and innovative. It's all just a big show so make it entertaining. Same with NASCAR, if they can lap Daytona at 250, cool. Figure it out and embrace speed, artificial limits seem counter to "crucible of motorsport" as JC puts it.

The big issue is that the tracks are not long enough to slow the cars down in time. Allowing a 400 mph dragster would mean they would all end up in a sand trap every time. Don Garlits almost lost his vision because of parachute technology in its infancy back then. They just can't slow down as fast as they can accelerate.