NASCRAP...what a joke.

I don't know why. I get sucked in every year. Someone posts a rant about NASCAR and even though I know better I read it.

Hey what a surprise another I hate NASCAR thread. I love the amount stupidity in this thread. It takes an incredible amount of skill to pilot something that big with that much power and little downforce. And to say that there is not any technology is also ridiculous. Those engines are very developed and the amount of time that is spent setting up the suspension is incredible. I don't watch NASCAR because I don't really like oval racing if it isn't on dirt but still.

patgizz wrote: i am not a nascar fan, but i respect the vehicles. i'll let you know how hard it is to handle one when i come back from the rusty wallace wheel to wheel racing experience in august.

That sounds like fun! I did the Petty thing at PPIR and even that was a blast.

In reply to Argo1:

It is very clear that you despise Nascar. You hate the cars, drivers and anyone who just might happen to like it. I guess you have the option of not watching it? I mean the rednecks haven't pulled guns on you and forced you to watch anything Nascar related have they?

Growing up I watched every race with my Dad. We also watched every kind of motorsport that was on t.v. Stadium trucks, I.M.S.A , Supercross, drag racing. You name it if it was on T.V. we watched it. I loved to watch the I.M.S.A cars run but Dad only liked Nascar, he would watch them all with me but he never really liked it. He was disabeled and we only went to one actual live race which was an I.H.R.A drag race. I guess my point is I am a fan of all motorsports.

I just do not understand the hate for circle track racing.

I don't recall Nascar saying they were going to be leading the way with new technologies. I believe that the whole big idea for them since forever ago has been to set it up so the cars are equal and the drivers are the difference. Now with the common template cars they have that.

I don't watch much Nascar anymore. I'll watch Daytona, Pocono, Talladega, Bristol and the road courses. I will watch every ALMS, Grand Am and World Challange race that is on. Basically any other type of motorport that is on t.v. I will catch but I will not make it a point to watch.

"Drivers have no skills"
Anyboy watch Kyle Bush last night..

my only issue is I think they should be sued for false advertising. they should be forced to change there name to NACTDESRAYCAB (National Association for Cars That Don't Even Slightly Resemble Anything You Can Actually Buy.)

Way to fall for the troll bait, fellas.

In reply to icaneat50eggs:

Like anything else, really. "Stock" doesn't mean stock in SCCA Autocross. "Street Prepared" means "may possibly be able to register the car, but almost all will come on trailers". "Street Modified" is ever further from anything that has ever seen any use on the "street" in ages. They start off being one thing but end up being another because someone reads the rules and leverages everything they allow to build a car that can win. I'm sure if you went through the history of NASCAR you'd see exactly the same thing.

icaneat50eggs wrote: my only issue is I think they should be sued for false advertising. they should be forced to change there name to NACTDESRAYCAB (National Association for Cars That Don't Even Slightly Resemble Anything You Can Actually Buy.)

Ever seen a truggy in the baja/dakar races?

Ok, let me rephrase that. I hate that they've gotten away from stock cars.

I love fried eggs, I could eat sixty of em, NASCAR is the old men using the butter and egg money building modified sportsmen packages hoping that someday they can make the show. Pyramid Scheme. Bankroll talent.

Naturally aspirated 750 hp, 9500 rpms from a 5.8L with no computer management assistance at all.

Nope, no talent here. Nothing much to see, except the troll under the bridge. Move along.

Argo1 wrote: Mama always said that you can't complain unless you have a better answer. This may not be better but it is my thoughts on how to make NASCAR relevent to today and restore it to a race series that incourages manufacturer involvement and technology advancements that mean something. It would also restore "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" as well as fan brand support instead of just driver support that we have now. Here are my thoughts for a new rules framework. Chime in with your thoughts: Rules concept: Eligible cars: Four door sedans sold in the US with a wheelbase of 112 inches or greater. Rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, and all wheel drive are allowed based on what is sold to the public in that model. Six, eight, ten, or twelve cylinder engines are allowed based on what is sold to the public in that model. Engines must use production block, head, and displacement sold in that model, but may be modified for performance. Cars that are sold with superchargers or turbochargers may use them if original equipment on the engine. Diesel would be allowed with equivalency. Cars must achieve a minimum of 8 mpg during the race (10mpg on superspeedways). Cars must meet equal CO emission targets. Minimum weight of the car will be based on engine size. Bodywork must match manufacturer’s templates except as allowed for specific allowed aerodynamic aides and wheel clearance changes individual to each car. Specified rear wings or spoilers are allowed. Safety roof flaps are required. Bodies must be mounted straight and centered on the chassis. Mechanical or electronic driving aids are not allowed. Data telemetry is not allowed. Some of the cars elegible: Aston Martin Rapide 6.0 V12 117.7 RWD Audi A8 4.2 V8 117.8 AWD BMW 5 Series 4.4 V8 120.9 RWD/ AWD Cadillac CTS 6.2 V8 113.4 RWD/ AWD Chevy Malibu 112.3 Chrysler 300 5.7 V8 120.2 RWD/ AWD Dodge Charger 5.7 V8 120.2 RWD/ AWD Ford Taurus 3.5 V6 112.9 AWD Hyundai Genesis 4.6 V8 115.6 RWD Infiniti G 3.7 V6 112.2 RWD/ AWD Infiniti M 5.6 V8 114.2 RWD/ AWD Jaguar XF 5.0 V8 114.5 RWD Lexus GS 4.6 V8 112.2 RWD/ AWD Lincoln MKS 3.7 V6 112.9 AWD Maserati Quatroporte 4.6 V8 120.6 RWD Mercedes E550 5.5 V8 113.2 RWD/ AWD Mercedes CSL 6.3 V8 112.4 RWD Porsche Panamera 4.8 V8 115.0 AWD Subaru Legacy 3.6 H6 118.3 AWD Weight penalty and aerodynamic drag penalties are assessed based on finishing positions up to a maximum of 200 lbs and one square foot of frontal area. Nationwide series could allow 2 door cars with shorter wheelbases and 4,6, or 8 cylinders with a similar rules concept.

grand am series?
touring car?
there are already series for all that. Maybe it would be a bit different because they'd be doing ovals for the most part but still...

ddavidv wrote: This: was racing

Anybody else here think that a vintage NASCAR series with the old Taledegas, Superbirds and Dodge Daytonas would be flat out cool?

I can't say that I hate NASCAR but I don't like it, either. It never grabbed my attention. I don't watch NASCAR on TV because it bores me, but the same is true for all of the televised coverage of racing. The idea of driving with speed and skill is something I'd prefer to pursue on my own.

While my crappy car is nowhere near as fast as the slowest NASCAR sled, and cost probably less than .0001 of the price of the most inexpensive and poorly developed car out there and in terms of driver skill, I'm nowhere near the skill of the lowest NASCAR driver, when everything is said and done I'd rather pay $40 and get 4 minutes of seat time at an rally or autocross than watch a race on TV. It's more fun for me to go and experience the competition first hand.

The same goes for golfing and baseball- both are much better played (badly, in my case) with friends than watching the best people on the planet make it look easy on TV.

I went to watch a Chump Car race last year. I was more interested and impressed with what was happening there, because I could possibly take some of that home and use it on my own cars.

aussiesmg wrote: I pine for the days of Smokey. That was Nascar. Money ruins all professional sports.

Since the NASCAR argument cannot be won by any side, ever....let's move on to another argument that cannot be won by any side, ever:

nascar is not a sport racing is not a sport racing is a competition

sports are played by athletes and played by using athetic ability, athletic skill, and the human body as the primary motivator of all the action.

racing, though certainly taxing on the body (in many cases), and requiring skill and coordination, does not require athleticism. And the cars are not motivated around the track by means of human power. Some of the best autocrossers I know get winded just walking the course, they're not athletes.

motorsports is a bit of a misnomer....I love motorsports. I really hate when people refer to it as a "sport" though.

--

as to NASCAR, I haven't watched it in years, and have no interest in it at all. The drivers are skilled and the cars are amazingly built. But it's boring. The top Curlers in teh world are really skilled too. And Curling is really boring as well.

If Grand-Am were on NBC on Sunday afternoons, I'd be all over it. Real cars, real racing.

while autocrossers might get winded walking the course.. I think you would be hardpressed to find a professional race car driver who was not an athlete. The body may not be the prime motivator, you you HAVE to be in shape to drive a race car for hours and hours. It is indeed a sport, and a physical one

I disagree, all those others are games. Mr. Hemmingway is far better with words than I, so I will use his.

Ernest Hemingway said: There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.”

Got the mountaineering out of the way in my younger, dumber, fitter days. now onto racing. I think I'll leave the bulls alone though

We can argue driver skill, pushrods and cars that resemble Lightning McQueen all day. The end result is still this: NASCAR is boring racing. I simply cannot see why anyone invests multiple hours of their day watching a parade in a circle interspersed with crashes and pit stops with guys still using floor jacks.

I don't hate on roundy-round racing. I've been to some local dirt tracks, and that's some good entertainment. But I have to admit, trying both styles of racing on iRacing, circle track is more about staying out of trouble than genius driving. Setting up someone for a pass, watching and learning where someone is slower or faster than you, etc is all much more apparent (and, I think, challenging) in road racing. In my mind, circle track (ie, NASCAR) has a much bigger challenge to make their racing interesting to a non-racer than road racing does. NASCAR's solution is to make it about personalities (at one time it was also about brands, but since they generic'd the cars that has disappeared). However, the personalites are now nothing like the Pearsons and Pettys of the 1970s. They have been homogenized into a corporate caricature.

What NASCAR's promoters seem to miss is that stock-car racing thrives on difference. Drivers who are different from other drivers. Cars that are different from other cars. Racing that is comprehensible to people watching on TV or sitting in the stands, and competition that seems to be rooted in real-world decisions. This sort of thing was present not too long ago. It wouldn't take that much work to bring back, but what mystifies me is how no one has made any concrete moves toward a solution.

A decent article on Jalopnik about this: Why NASCAR is boring

While I agree personally, there are millions of fans who find it very exciting. Looks like a matter of personal taste to me.

I watch NASCAR for the wrecks.

I used to think Cup drivers had skill, when we used to do oval driving as part of our annual autocross driving school. It was pretty amazing to see how little it tool to really mess up a lap enough that you would get burned. Granted, our ovals were flat, and Cup ovals are round. But there's a single line, that baffles road course drivers, for a reason- it's fastest way around. The fact that they can do it for hours is awesome.

And then last summer, I got to do a Cup drive experience at Michigan International- my wife got it for me for by birthday.

Now I don't think they are very skilled- I KNOW IT.

You may recall my post about it- but being a first timer for them, they limited me to 144mph, and I kept a reasonably safe distance behind my lead driver. 144mph in a car capable of +200 isn't very hard, and it does give you time to think and put yourself in their shoes. We are taught to look ahead, right? Well even at 144mph, that's pretty far down the road to me. Even on a circle. Much farther than the guy I'm following. And there probably was space for 3-4 car between us- in normal cup racing space. Seeing lines that extend as long as they do- all I could think was "where in the world are they looking?- the car in front, or cars, or the track?

The point two- these tracks look pretty smooth. They are not. At 144mph (not fast, if you'll recall)- that track is bumpy. Particularly at start finish, there's a big dip. At 200mph, holy crap.

Then how the cars skate around. Yea, my car wasn't at all- it was barely trying. But you could get a sense of what it's like. With so little areo- these things are very on edge. When you have issues with very minor push in mid corner, and it bothers the driver- oh my- they are working hard.

So putting that all together, in a race, for 500 miles. Yea, it does take a LOT of skill to drive those cars.

Sure- not my cup of tea to watch, either. But I 100% appreciate what they are putting out there.

As for the equality- they learned a long time ago that the fans paying the bills likes that kind of racing. A lot. So be it. I'm quite certain that there are a LOT more fans who like that than there are bitching about it.

Besides, it's not as if we don't have choices to watch- adding NASCAR really isn't needed between F1, Indy, Aussie Supercar, BTCC, ETCC, DTM, LeMans, and even nascars' DP series. Let alone all of the other series I didn't mention.

In reply to fast_eddie_72:

Stock meant (until the 1990s) stock bodies. Until the 1980s it meant production-based chassis too. I say bring back that formula. I agree about street prepared getting increasingly farther from "street." My FSP NEON is trailered, but that is for convenience. I don't feel like calling for a tow should I break something and I don't feel like wearing out my autocross car on the street. However, it is fully streetable and has all emmissions equipment and a/c intact (it gets hot in grid).

No one think that stock means showroom stock, but it should not mean silhouette cars, which current NASCAR cars are not either. I would be happy if NASCAR used a formula similar to either SCCA Production or GT classes. I will concede to tubeframe cars, but use actual body dimensions and in-production engines.

Why can't NASCAR use Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers? We have seen production-based Mustangs and Camaros in American LeMans and Grand Am.