BTW, Mazda's brief for the 2004 MSM was "faster than an S2000".
BTW, Mazda's brief for the 2004 MSM was "faster than an S2000".
Hey Keith, What about adding power to an NC for those who want to keep the budget low...as low as possible. I know they're products you sell, so you wouldn't say they're "bad", but if you took a bone stock NC and did the ECUtek reflash and a CAI, how much of a difference will you notice in the car? How much power would that add (presuming everything else on the car functions as it should)?
Not to pry, but what do you enjoy driving? I wouldn't worry too much about being "faster than XXX." I like slow cars on the track personally. Easier to learn, easier to see improvement, etc.
Of course, the best way to get faster is "improving the nut behind the wheel."
All that said: Exocet? :D
Keith Tanner wrote: BTW, Mazda's brief for the 2004 MSM was "faster than an S2000".
Keith, I always love reading your input and respect the amount of Miata knowledge you possess, but as someone who has owned both, there's no way a MSM is faster than an S2000 of the same year. Mazda can say whatever they want, but it would be false/misleading advertising.
I used to own a 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata. I now own a 2007 S2000 (AP2). My MSM was a riot to drive! The low boosted 1.8L had plenty of character and good mid-range torque, but in pretty much any contest of speed, the S2000 would maul it.
Having owned both, the MSM definitely has a few things going for it: the MSM is more forgiving at the limit, it has better steering feel, better mid-range torque, it's a lighter car (~2500 lbs vs 2700-2800 lbs depending on model year S2000) and when pushing the car, the MSM's brakes seemed to have just a bit more resistance to fade.
But in all out contests of speed, the S2000 is faster. Obviously the Honda has much stronger top-end pull, it also has sharp(er) turn-in, responsive "everything", a MUCH better shifter (I never liked the MSM's 6-speed), a serious lack of body roll, more supportive seats and a substantially stiffer chassis (makes the MSM feel like a wet noodle).
Car and Driver did a 5 car comparison with both of them involved years ago. Mazda can say whatever they want, but in the acceleration department, the S2000 had a pretty substantial advantage: http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2004-caterham-seven-superlight-r-vs-factory-five-racing-mark-ii-roadster-honda-s2000-lotus-elise-mazdaspeed-mx-5-miataextreme-sports.pdf
-MSM: 0-60mph= 6.7, 1/4 mile= 15.2@91mph -S2000: 0-60mph= 5.5, 1/4 mile= 14.0@100mph
^^^A 9mph difference in trap speed is pretty substantial in my eyes.
In their respective stock SCCA autoX classes (A Street for S2000 CR, B Street for non-CR S2000, E Street for MSM), S2000's traditionally run faster times as well. Granted, the MSM is at a bit of a gearing disadvantage on a cone course, but as a general rule, the S2000 is faster than the MSM in just about any contest of speed.
Klayfish wrote: Hey Keith, What about adding power to an NC for those who want to keep the budget low...as low as possible. I know they're products you sell, so you wouldn't say they're "bad", but if you took a bone stock NC and did the ECUtek reflash and a CAI, how much of a difference will you notice in the car? How much power would that add (presuming everything else on the car functions as it should)?
The thing about buying power is that it's cheaper in bulk. If you spend as little as possible, you will find very little result. For a CAI and a reflash, figure maybe 10 hp.
Spend that same amount of money on suspension and you'll make a notable difference.
roninsoldier83 wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: BTW, Mazda's brief for the 2004 MSM was "faster than an S2000".Keith, I always love reading your input and respect the amount of Miata knowledge you possess, but as someone who has owned both, there's no way a MSM is faster than an S2000 of the same year. Mazda can say whatever they want, but it would be false/misleading advertising. I used to own a 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata. I now own a 2007 S2000 (AP2). My MSM was a riot to drive! The low boosted 1.8L had plenty of character and good mid-range torque, but in pretty much any contest of speed, the S2000 would maul it. Having owned both, the MSM definitely has a few things going for it: the MSM is more forgiving at the limit, it has better steering feel, better mid-range torque, it's a lighter car (~2500 lbs vs 2700-2800 lbs depending on model year S2000) and when pushing the car, the MSM's brakes seemed to have just a bit more resistance to fade. But in all out contests of speed, the S2000 is faster. Obviously the Honda has much stronger top-end pull, it also has sharp(er) turn-in, responsive "everything", a MUCH better shifter (I never liked the MSM's 6-speed), a serious lack of body roll, more supportive seats and a substantially stiffer chassis (makes the MSM feel like a wet noodle). Car and Driver did a 5 car comparison with both of them involved years ago. Mazda can say whatever they want, but in the acceleration department, the S2000 had a pretty substantial advantage: http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2004-caterham-seven-superlight-r-vs-factory-five-racing-mark-ii-roadster-honda-s2000-lotus-elise-mazdaspeed-mx-5-miataextreme-sports.pdf -MSM: 0-60mph= 6.7, 1/4 mile= 15.2@91mph -S2000: 0-60mph= 5.5, 1/4 mile= 14.0@100mph ^^^A 9mph difference in trap speed is pretty substantial in my eyes. In their respective stock SCCA autoX classes (A Street for S2000 CR, B Street for non-CR S2000, E Street for MSM), S2000's traditionally run faster times as well. Granted, the MSM is at a bit of a gearing disadvantage on a cone course, but as a general rule, the S2000 is faster than the MSM in just about any contest of speed.
Calm down for a second and read what you quoted. I didn't say it was their advertising. It was their brief.
In the early 2000s, Mazda sent an RFP out to several aftermarket tuners looking for someone to build the Mazdaspeed Miata. The stated performance goal was "faster than an S2000". I didn't come by this info by reading it on the internet. It was a more direct source.
Then Callaway dropped the ball with the Mazdaspeed Protege so epically that Mazda vowed to never work with a third party again. All Mazdaspeed development was moved in-house. I do not have access to their internal deliberations after that point, but I imagine the goal didn't change too much. However, they could have done better. The MSM in stock form is nothing to get too excited about although it does have some nice interior tweaks. Basically, it was an attempt to get a little bit of sales excitement for the departing 15-year-old Miata platform before the all-new (well, all new as a convertible) NC showed up.
While Mazda didn't manage to meet their goal, it's pretty clear that the aftermarket is capable. We don't even offer a turbo kit for the 1.6 that will make as little power as the MSM did. I'm comfortable pitting an FM II powered Miata against an S2000.
Keith Tanner wrote:Klayfish wrote: Hey Keith, What about adding power to an NC for those who want to keep the budget low...as low as possible. I know they're products you sell, so you wouldn't say they're "bad", but if you took a bone stock NC and did the ECUtek reflash and a CAI, how much of a difference will you notice in the car? How much power would that add (presuming everything else on the car functions as it should)?The thing about buying power is that it's cheaper in bulk. If you spend as little as possible, you will find very little result. For a CAI and a reflash, figure maybe 10 hp. Spend that same amount of money on suspension and you'll make a notable difference.
I definitely understand what you're saying. I know the old saying "How fast do you want to go? How much money do you have?" would apply. But in a nutshell, here's why I'm asking. Shopping for a weekend toy under $10k. I love all kinds of cars, so I can go all over the map. I'm looking at cars from NC to '06-'08 Mustang GT and all things in between...even looking at G35/37/350Z, the one non-convertible on my list. I'd be quite happy with any of them, so going for the best bargain. Have a line on a killer deal for an NC. Owned one before, love them. Besides the horrid seats, the one thing on my NC wish list was more power. If I get the car, my commute is 90+% highway cruising, very few opportunities to tackle serious twisty roads. In that highway commute, I tackle a fair amount of rush hour traffic, so even a little extra oomph helps squeeze into holes in traffic. A boosted Miata or swapped would be absolutely awesome, but that would put me into a serious money spend and for that total cash layout, I'd probably go with a different car (Mustang, FM platform car, etc...). So I was just curious if even adding the 10hp makes any kind of notable difference...and does it change throttle response? If I grab an NC, I'll be quite happy to drive it in purely stock form every day the sun is out and it's above 60 degrees...well, except for a foamectomey...just didn't know if was worthwhile to add a little extra power.
accordionfolder wrote: Not to pry, but what do you enjoy driving?
^^^This. I wouldn't be concerned with what other people think about the car you're driving, or impressing anyone. At the end of the day, the only person the car should [hopefully] impress is the guy driving it!
To the OP:
If I was in your shoes, I'm not sure if I would sink $20k into an older Miata. And if I did, I think the only paths I would consider would be either an LS swap, or an Exocet conversion.
This is my rationale:
-You buy a ~$5000 NB Miata. You sink $10k+ into it via forced induction, wheels/tires, suspension, ect. At the end of the day, the car is in no way worth $15k+. Frequently, stock cars sell for more money than modded cars. This won't matter for purposes of beating your dad's S2000, but it might matter if you want to sell it later on down the line.
-The exceptions to this rule, at least in Miata-world, seem to be well done V8 swaps and arguably the Exocet conversion. Those conversions generally do increase the value of the car (pretty significantly), but make no mistake, it'll never be worth the amount of money you put into it.
I LOVE the idea of a K-series swapped Miata, but I'm not sure how it'll affect the car's value down the line. Seems like a great idea though: lightweight inline-4, but with more power and character. Keep the inherent balance and relative weight of the car, but just add more power. I like this idea... but at some point, as someone mentioned before, rather than stuffing a Honda drivetrain into a Miata, it might make more sense to just buy an S2000...
If you're dead set on getting an older Miata, I think I would be looking at the Exocet conversion. You're going to add a substantial amount of speed and as a driver, the visceral appeal would be high in my book. This is assuming you have a 2nd car as a daily driver.
Also realize that with $20k to spend, you can get a great number of cars that are more capable straight out of the box.... obviously the S2000 comes to mind, as does a C5/C6 Corvette. Have you ever driven a 986 Boxster S? I think the 987 is the better car, but for the money, a 986 S is a riot to drive on a canyon road!
And of course, there's one major problem with spending that kind of money on an NA/NB Miata: for not much more you can get a used 2016 ND.... I've owned an NA6 and a NB MSM. I've driven all 4 generations of Miata on more occasions than I can count- the ND is the best one they've ever made IMO. It needs some work- the motor feels a bit lifeless and uninspiring and the suspension is too soft for my taste, but the chassis is phenomenal! I almost bought one before I bought my AP2 S2000...
A stock ND Miata is damn near on par with the S2000... With normal bolt-ons, it should be more than a fair fight. The ND was running neck and neck with the AP2 S2000 this past year at SCCA Nationals. The S2000's still won, but it was close enough that I would consider them relative equals with normal bolt-ons.
Lots of options at your disposal...
The value of a swapped Miata (or any car) is directly related to the quality of the work. You see this in LS-powered cars for sale, there's a dramatic disparity in price. If you take shortcuts, you will take a big hit in resale. For maximum resale, there needs to be nothing left to do and everything needs to be tidy. Full HVAC function, clean engine bay, perfect running condition, quality supporting parts and I have to say this - matching body panels. Even a slight sign of any shortcuts or missing features has a dramatic effect on the value. Don't even think about selling one in "90% complete!" form.
We have a car in-house that's worth $1k with $10k worth of parts bolted to it. That's not an exaggeration. It's huge fun on track and faster than anything you could buy for $11k. Other than the Exocet, it's the staff favorite for track time - although that's also because I won't let anyone else drive my car :) Way faster than a stock S2000, anyhow. We're not planning to sell it so resale value isn't a concern. Honestly, if resale is important, you probably shouldn't have it on the track anyhow. This discussion is about performance, not "how do I get the maximum resale value out of a stock Miata".
I suggested the ND in my first post. With suspension and tires, I've run down S2000s on track quite easily. The amount of lateral grip the ND can provide is spectacular.
Klayfish wrote:Keith Tanner wrote:I definitely understand what you're saying. I know the old saying "How fast do you want to go? How much money do you have?" would apply. But in a nutshell, here's why I'm asking. Shopping for a weekend toy under $10k. I love all kinds of cars, so I can go all over the map. I'm looking at cars from NC to '06-'08 Mustang GT and all things in between...even looking at G35/37/350Z, the one non-convertible on my list. I'd be quite happy with any of them, so going for the best bargain. Have a line on a killer deal for an NC. Owned one before, love them. Besides the horrid seats, the one thing on my NC wish list was more power. If I get the car, my commute is 90+% highway cruising, very few opportunities to tackle serious twisty roads. In that highway commute, I tackle a fair amount of rush hour traffic, so even a little extra oomph helps squeeze into holes in traffic. A boosted Miata or swapped would be absolutely awesome, but that would put me into a serious money spend and for that total cash layout, I'd probably go with a different car (Mustang, FM platform car, etc...). So I was just curious if even adding the 10hp makes any kind of notable difference...and does it change throttle response? If I grab an NC, I'll be quite happy to drive it in purely stock form every day the sun is out and it's above 60 degrees...well, except for a foamectomey...just didn't know if was worthwhile to add a little extra power.Klayfish wrote: Hey Keith, What about adding power to an NC for those who want to keep the budget low...as low as possible. I know they're products you sell, so you wouldn't say they're "bad", but if you took a bone stock NC and did the ECUtek reflash and a CAI, how much of a difference will you notice in the car? How much power would that add (presuming everything else on the car functions as it should)?The thing about buying power is that it's cheaper in bulk. If you spend as little as possible, you will find very little result. For a CAI and a reflash, figure maybe 10 hp. Spend that same amount of money on suspension and you'll make a notable difference.
Can you feel a 7% increase in power? It's easier to feel a loss than a gain, but it's not going to be a game-changer. The intake won't have any effect on throttle response but it sounds cool. The tune might. The nature of the NC is that it's faster than it feels, which is good for racing but bad if nobody's running a stopwatch.
Keith Tanner wrote: Calm down for a second and read what you quoted. I didn't say it was their advertising. It was their brief. In the early 2000s, Mazda sent an RFP out to several aftermarket tuners looking for someone to build the Mazdaspeed Miata. The stated performance goal was "faster than an S2000". I didn't come by this info by reading it on the internet. It was a more direct source. Then Callaway dropped the ball with the Mazdaspeed Protege so epically that Mazda vowed to never work with a third party again. All Mazdaspeed development was moved in-house. I do not have access to their internal deliberations after that point, but I imagine the goal didn't change too much. However, they could have done better. The MSM in stock form is nothing to get too excited about although it does have some nice interior tweaks. Basically, it was an attempt to get a little bit of sales excitement for the departing 15-year-old Miata platform before the all-new (well, all new as a convertible) NC showed up. While Mazda didn't manage to meet their goal, it's pretty clear that the aftermarket is capable. We don't even offer a turbo kit for the 1.6 that will make as little power as the MSM did. I'm comfortable pitting an FM II powered Miata against an S2000.
I hear ya, buddy. While I appreciate the insight, it is a bit of an ambiguous statement that can be left up to the reader's interpretation; as the word "brief" can be described as a summary, as opposed to a goal. In the context of this conversation, a person could certainly get the implication that the MSM is a superior performing car...
Either way, my long winded post was more targeted towards potential MSM buyers that might have seen your post and interpreted it in a manner that led them to believe an MSM was an S2000 level performer; to which it isn't.
Thanks for the insight on the MSM development!
The aftermarket is certainly capable of turning the Miata in all of it's forms, into a monster. I'm sure an FM II Miata is capable of running with an S2000. No doubt about it, I've always been a big fan of the things FM does with the Miata!
Being that I'm a Colorado native, I'm actually bummed out that you guys don't have a product line for the S2000! I was also bummed to hear that S2000's can't attend the track day portion of Flyin' Miata Summer Camp... Maybe one of these years you guys will change your mind. 
I know you guys have seem what a bit of boost will do to a Miata.... in that respect, have you seen what boost will do to an S2000? Very big numbers for a 4-cylinder. I'm just saying- if you guys ever decided to branch out to making product lines for other roadsters, I would be an instant [local-ish] customer!
We have between 3-5 distinct platforms to support depending on how you count them. Adding another low volume, out of production car to the lineup just isn't possible. FM is not as big as you might think.
The "Miata only" rule at our Summer Camp is at the request of the attendees. And also because we don't even have enough room for all the Miatas, and since it's a subsidized day we want to keep it for those who buy parts from us! You can always come out and play with us at HPR. I usually run the ZCCC days out there, and I often have a four cylinder ND with me that I use to pass S2000s :). I also used to run regular track days at our local track, you would have been welcome at those.
In reply to Keith Tanner:
I might try to meet up with you guys at HPR this year! Shoot me a message & let me know when you're heading up there. 
If it's alright with you, I would really love you get a ride in the ND with a proper suspension... even if it is faster than my Honda.
As noted, I usually go to the ZCCC dates although they have not yet set the schedule for 2017. I've got a fairly busy race schedule this year, so I'll probably forget to notify you about one track day in particular.
No one has mentioned it yet, but the 4-cylinder, 2.3 liter Ford Ecoboost seems to be a great option for swaps:
2.3 Mustang Ecoboost crate engine
You can buy one compete with turbo, wiring harness, and all the accessories for just under $8k from Ford Racing. Stock power level approaches 300 and it shouldn't be tough to get a bit more out of it. Should be smaller and lighter than any V8 swap.
I've got a Merkur XR4Ti sitting behind my buddy's shop. If I can find a wrecked 2.3L Mustang, I'd love to swap over the EcoBoost engine and 6-speed trains. Like a modern day Sierra RS Cosworth ... but with more power (stock) and much better reliability.
Great in theory, but not even close to a developed swap for the Miata at this point.
Definitely an interesting option, especially for the NC as it's a relative of the stock MZR. Not only is it not a developed swap, I don't even know if it's been attempted.
I'm not sure I'd claim smaller and lighter until you had numbers, though. Turbos and their plumbing add a surprising amount of weight and volume to an otherwise trim motor. The reason the LS engine is so popular for swaps is specifically because it's so compact and light for what it is. You could get away with a weaker - probably stock - and thus lighter transmission.
I agree that it belongs in an XR4Ti. You can use the NC trans. I'd recommend using the crate engine and control pack, it's not easy to transplant a DI engine.
Nathan JansenvanDoorn wrote: Great in theory, but not even close to a developed swap for the Miata at this point.
This is GRM...develop it yourself! Lol
[full disclosure: I have no idea WTF I'm talking about. Just throwing out ideas]
Keith Tanner wrote: I agree that it belongs in an XR4Ti. You can use the NC trans. I'd recommend using the crate engine and control pack, it's not easy to transplant a DI engine.
The control pack is included in the price. According to the link, it includes everything you need to retrofit the engine into an older chassis. I'm sure it's not easy.
Oh, I'm aware of the package I've had a few conversations with the Ford engineers about it as well as a few of the other options they offer. They're not quite as easy to deal with as the GM guys, but still pretty helpful. GM is great, they'll even give you CAD models. My comment about transplanting a DI engine referred to taking it out of production vehicle and transplanting it into something else. A crate designed for swaps is a different beast than an ECU for a production car. Alfadriver's commented on some of the changes on the Ford crates in the past - there are some significant changes to how the ECU is set up. The GM crates use a different operating system on the PCM.
The ideal internet engine swap is one that's been done once before. That way you can have the solutions to your problems spoon fed to you, but it's not "played out" like it is when it's been done twice. 
You guys are NOT helping clear this up, but great point about what do I enjoy driving.
I’ve only driven a handful of things enough to really comment on them, and I liked different things about each one.
Frankenfiat – I liked: stupid light, 1450 lbs with me in it. The reaction it got from people. Had way more car guys gathered around it than even the high end exotics at autocross. I also liked the guys it attracted (a very grm crowd) Didn’t Like – Dicey at best handling, snap EXTREME oversteer (the mantra was: Pray and for the love of god don’t lift) CONSTANTLY having to fix things.
95 Miata with FM suspension bits – I liked: the lightweight nimble feel of it. Beating the new guys at autocross showing up in new x06’s and gtrs. I liked that it turned driving more into a thinking mans game because you actually had time to think and set yourself up for the next corner. Driving a slow car fast. I could hoon in a relatively responsible manner and not wind up in jail. I loved that any answer to a problem, HP, handling, brakes is well developed and a phone call away vs. the frankenfiat where it was literally weeks of research and fab for something that then needed multiple revisions to work well. Stupid reliable until a truck slams into it.
Didn’t like: merging onto the highway. Being slower than my wifes minivan off a light.
S2000: I liked: VTEC YO!!! Rev’s to the moon, the shifter, I swear the entire linkage is carved out of unicorn horns. Slightly tail happy tendency leads to much grins . seems to be at the bottom of depreciation. I don’t like: My dad and brother already have one, prices are pretty steep for a 10+ year old car.
Shifter kart: I like: OH MY GOD STUPID FAST!!! Scares everyone who drives it, even impressed my impossible to impress in a car brother. I don’t like: Incredibly physically demanding. I have yet to come up with a great system for wearing glasses and helmet together, track only, way to fast for a ham fisted driver like me to handle.
and totally off subject, Keith, what the heck does "Square left in 50 caution ocean!" mean?
icaneat50eggs wrote: and totally off subject, Keith, what the heck does "Square left in 50 caution ocean!" mean?
Gotta be a Targa Newfoundland course note.
... and they mean it.
icaneat50eggs wrote: and totally off subject, Keith, what the heck does "Square left in 50 caution ocean!" mean?
This guys navigator was asking the same question.
I actually thought that the Frankenfiat would be much more prone to oversteer than it was. The problems that I had with it were nasty bump steer, loose front suspension, blown out rear shocks and too much body roll - all of which I hope to have cured by spring.
With 20K to spend, I still lean towards 2 vehicles - You should be able to build a S2000 beater Miata for under 10 grand, or an Exocet for a little more. But given the extreme weather in Texas, I'd also like a play car with more utility on the side.
Alternately - I love the RX-8 platform. It's a shame that there aren't more developed swaps for that. Something like the aforementioned 2.3 ecoboost in a RX-8 would be fantastic. Or a LSX would do in a pinch
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