need legal help with online porsche purchase...

hey guys, im trying to help a buddy of mine out.

he bought this car, off ebay after the auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200509811724&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

had it shipped from california. the car is not as advertised, it is a turd. im trying to talk him into taking legal action and getting his money back. hes on the fence about 'wasting' his money trying to fight the guy on this one.

i need some legal advice in the bay area. someone who specializes in internet fraud or online automobile auctions.

thanks, jon

I live in Chicago - Cannot help - it looks like a great car from the ebay ad. what's wrong with it?

Define turd. Not being a wise-ass but... if the description could loosely be considered true and it's coming down to intangibles like paint quality, things an owner could deny knowledge of like hidden rust or things not mentioned in the ad... like electrical gremlins that he didn't think to check then he is probably correct in saving his coin and fixing it himself. Only if there is blatant misrepresentation in the ad is it going to be worth the time, money and aggrevation.

A plane ticket, a lonely alleyway and a louisville slugger will be much cheaper and likely more effective regardless.

I must say, It does look really sweet in the ad. I could see how one could make a mistake of judgement late in the evening after 3 fingers of The Glenlivet hit bottom.

How is it not as advertised? You can see the car in the photos, and as long as the real car matches the photos, then it is as advertised. If the car was wrecked after the photos were taken, or the shipped a different car, then yes, you have a case. Or if there is damage that they purposely avoided taking photos of, I would say you have a case. If all of the things they say were done to the car are lies, then you have a case.

The problem is that E-Bay auctions are not really setup to protect you from fraud. Paying over $20K for something that you have not seen or had a trusted third-party verify on your behalf seems crazy to me. Best-case scenario your friend will pay for shipping both ways and a "handling fee" of some sort, plus legal fees.

it does look to be very nice in the ad, but those pictures could have been taken some time ago, or before the car was raced for several seasons

Unless the VIN on the car is different than the one in the ad, I don't think he as much of an argument.

That's a very descriptive and carefully worded auction, with a lot of photos. Right at the beginning, it states that it is a 1974 chassis. This would work in the seller's favor.

The 914-6 was only made until 1972. You need to look very closely at the description and understand exactly what you're bidding on.

eBay is where you want to sell a Porsche, not where you want to buy one.

$21K plus shipping is a lot of money to spend sight unseen on a 36 year old car. Unless there are outright lies in the ad, your friend got the car he paid for.

nderwater wrote: $21K plus shipping is a lot of money to spend sight unseen on a 36 year old car. Unless there are outright lies in the ad, your friend got the car he paid for.

+1

A $500 plane ticket would have been pretty cheap for an on the spot inspection.

Caveat Emptor.

I'm just surprised that there was a 914 ripoff and Automobile Atlanta WASN'T involved.

he realized he was getting a 914. converted to 914-6. the pictures were older, had to be, lots of damage/use since the pics were taken.

the car is a rust bucket. i've seen alot of 914's, and i wouldn't pay $500 for the chassis. my friend POINT BLANK asked in emails about the condition of the normal trouble areas. the owner stated the car had no rust, and was 'perfect'...and not talkin about surface rust. im talkin rust CANCER, holes big enought to get my fingers thru, botched repairs, horrible flux-core welding etc...

the guy is a pca member and ex-concours judge? etc and was very convincing on the phone and emails. my buddy researched the guy, he checked out. my buddy is offering to pay shipping to return it.

anybody know a lawyer in the bay area. we need a 'car guy' someone who understands whats at stake.

thanks again...jon

is there documentation that stated NO RUST anywhere?

"Your honor, the guy told me on the phone there was no rust " isnt gonna hold water Im afraid.

In reply to jhaas:

I bet the best case scenario is returning the car and eating all the shipping costs. A legal battle will eat up the purchase price again in no time.

yes, as well as many many emails about the very areas that have rust.

the paint job is far from professional, lots of bondo, heavy grit sanding lines etc...there was also an isuue with the flares. the owner states in emails that the flares are steel. they are not, but he does say EXPENSIVE FG GT FENDERS in the auction which i know means fiberglass.

all we want to do is return the car 'NOT AS ADVERTISED' thats it this car is worth about half was paid.

This article should help:

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/columns/legal-files/2386-the-long-distance-purchase-and-the-lawsuit

I don't think there will be a lot of sympathy from this board, cardinal rule when buying sight unseen, get some eyeballs on the thing.

Datsun1500 wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: is there documentation that stated NO RUST anywhere? "*Your honor, the guy told me on the phone there was no rust* " isnt gonna hold water Im afraid.

Right in the Ebay ad. ORIGINAL FLOOR PANS AND TRUNK PANS ARE RUST FREE, AS IS THE BODY.

LOL...web nanny sez "no Ebay for you!!!"

Raze wrote: I don't think there will be a lot of sympathy from this board, cardinal rule when buying sight unseen, get some eyeballs on the thing.

^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^^^^

I spent $180 for a cheapo ticket out to Oregon to check out a ~$5k beetle I was considering buying. I was gonna buy sight unseen but the missus insisted that I fly out there to check it out. That plane flight and overnight hotel and fast food meals were money well spent. That car was indeed a turd......seats bolted in with perforated angle iron, scratched and hazy plastic rear window, dodgy electrics just scratched the surface of teh wrongnesses........

IMHO, it's a pass for me if I can't check it out or I can't have a very very very! trusted friend check things out. The Puma I bought was unseen by me but gone over by a very trusted friend. It's always a good sign when the friend says that if you don't want the car he's checked out on your behalf that he is interested in it!!

914's seem to be one of "those" cars that don't just rust, but attract rust from other cars............

I would get ebay involved; they changede their policies regarding the sale of cars due to a 'vette being misrepresented in ways similar to this one. So, you have case law on your side. Shoot them an email, document everything, and see what happens by mid day tomorrow. They don't want the publicity of another sale winding its way through the court system. if you can find it, someplace, I'd call them directly and complain about the misrepresentation.

I "won" this car on ebay without even going and looking at it. The guy said it sat in a Wisconsin farmer's field for 17 years and was an original Minnesota car. It was a rust bucket too. Guy lied to me....oh wait, I only paid $128.00.

Anything over $1,500 would force me to buy a Southwest Airlines ticket to inspect in person.

Has your buddy contacted the seller yet? Has the seller offered any concessions?

triumph5 wrote: I would get ebay involved; they changede their policies regarding the sale of cars due to a 'vette being misrepresented in ways similar to this one. So, you have case law on your side. Shoot them an email, document everything, and see what happens by mid day tomorrow. They don't want the publicity of another sale winding its way through the court system. if you can find it, someplace, I'd call them directly and complain about the misrepresentation.

I tried to research it to find the case law, but I didn't see any...not saying it didn't happen, I just didn't locate it. I'd be curious to see what they'd do. They'll probably say that they aren't liable for the accuracy of the ads placed by individuals, and rightfully so. I'm sure they don't want bad publicity over it, and I'd bet they'd try to assist reaching the seller and pushing for the buyer and seller to come to resolution. Maybe they'd even throw the seller off Ebay if they felt warranted. But if push came to shove, I suspect they'd back out.

Sounds like a really crappy situation your friend is in. Hope it works out for him. But my guess also is that he'd spend a fortune in legal fees (if he found someone willing to take the case) and the recovery may be a lot less than that.

Ebay changed their selling policies because of this ruling; it was heavily written up in Hemmings, and other auto sources. It involved a 'vette advertised one way, and upon delivery, the new owner had it inspected, and it had all kinds of problems. And then the lawyers got involved. Call the guys at Hemmings in Bennington, VT (I know, I know), and the policy should be stated somewhere in Ebay Motors. They went to the point of sending out emails to people who had recently bought cars through them of the changes to the protection policy. It was not a small blip in their policy/way of doing business--it changed how cars were sold via ebay.

Start with eBay (good luck with that) and go from there. I think he's screwed, but certainly try. After eBay blows him off, then I suppose he could try suing, but even if he wins, that money is gone. The Esquires can explain the difference between winning a lawsuite and ever seeing a penny.

IN THE FUTURE: Eyes on before the final dollars change hands is the way to go. I've done it for others. One guy on my Esprit mailing list bought a turbo trans am or something. He posted on our yahoo list looking for someone in our area and I volunteered to go look at it for him. I met the seller at a gas station and checked it out. It was fine, if not better than the eBay listing described it, but good peace of mind for the buyer. The two cars I've bought on eBay, my Esprit Turbo and the Corolla GTS, I put a deposit on and paid the rest when I picked it up in person. The Rolla was only four bills, so no big deal there, but the Esprit was Real Money, so I certainly wanted to have a hands-on with that.

P.S. Wait a minute, just read the thread with the updates from other posters. If he did NOT buy it through an ebay auction, then, Caveat Empor applies big time. Deception of fraud will have to be proved in order to win. A very expensive lesson may be learned on pre-inspecting a car on this one. Fraud/deception of the car, and/or a history of such by the seller are your only hopes on this one.