codrus said:So I'm not an expert on setting up FWD cars, but I think if you're saying the car is too loose and that it has no front sway bar, then that's the answer to your problem right there...
May not be the total answer but that is the first step I would take. And if the rear is stiffer than stock, put the stock rear bar back in.
The factory rear spoiler can't weight that much, I would try putting it back on, they do make more aggressive rear spoilers for the fit, not sure if functional or just for looks honestly, my fit doesn't have the spoiler (non sport model) and I often wonder if it is functional enough to be worth adding one. Honda does like to use extended roof spoilers on most of it's sporty hatch backs. starting with the first civic si's .
codrus said:So I'm not an expert on setting up FWD cars, but I think if you're saying the car is too loose and that it has no front sway bar, then that's the answer to your problem right there...
Never reduce the grip of the end that's working unless its a short term fix.....sway bars on light low cars reduce overall grip across the axle used on.
Check the rear is actually loosing grip and sliding or rear steering due to sloppy toe link bushings.
Take 5 min and remove one endlink on the rear sway bar.....if its better then the rear is too stiff and needs softer rear springs and/or rear bar.(lsd or not would have an effect on my route to take)
For autox areo thats effective it needs to be aggressive,a stock spoiler won't make a bit of difference.
Rear suspension tweaks are needed before going down the areo rabbit hole imho.
I'm thinking along the same lines as Kevlarcorolla. I too fix the end that isn't working.
The first thing I would check is the alignment.
You went to wider tires and I'm assuming new wheels, is the offset difference per chance?
You went to a lower profile tire, going softer on the dampers mainly effects the transient handling, perhaps the stiffer/lower sidewall tire itself is the reason for the change in balance and softening of the dampers can't overcome it.
I am curious about having no front bar, I'm assuming this is done to attempt to get more forward bite / FWD thing?
In reply to Tom1200 :
I'm a big fan of no sway bars whenever possibly,at the very least trying to keep them as small as possible.
I don't know if the Lancia below is any inspiration I really just wanted to post a pic of one. 
My guess is that you either need more spring in the front without that bar in there, or you need to reconnect the bar. I'd get pictures of the car in action, see what it's looking like.
An interesting thing happened once whe I had a front bar come disconnected from the endlink in my E36 BMW during an autocross. I didn't realize it, and the car was so tail happy it was un-drivable. The front had better grip than ever, but the rear would come around mid-corner, even before I put power down. I know this is a totally different car, but it makes me think that all of that roll resistance that you have in the rear is making that end slide around way too much in relation to the front. More spring or bar is needed up front.
CyberEric said:My guess is that you either need more spring in the front without that bar in there, or you need to reconnect the bar. I'd get pictures of the car in action, see what it's looking like.
An interesting thing happened once whe I had a front bar come disconnected from the endlink in my E36 BMW during an autocross. I didn't realize it, and the car was so tail happy it was un-drivable. The front had better grip than ever, but the rear would come around mid-corner, even before I put power down. I know this is a totally different car, but it makes me think that all of that roll resistance that you have in the rear is making that end slide around way too much in relation to the front. More spring or bar is needed up front.
The defense rests.....
In reply to CyberEric :
More bar loosens that end of the car. Oversteering? Add front bar or remove rear. Understeering? Add rear bar or remove front bar.
In addition to the aforementioned mechanical solutions (more spring in the front, or reconnect the bar), your tire pressure stagger is backwards, too. Try running a little more in the rear than the front. I know all you old SCCA guys will fight me on this, so here's Tire Rack as a reference: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=58
The reason this works (to a point) is that a tire is able to generate more lateral force at a given slip angle when you have higher pressure. Some guys run 50psi in the rear of their FWD car, and have less grip in the back because now their tires are shaped like balloons. But at normal pressure, more air = more lateral force. And it's free to try.
The Fit sport body kit was actually aero tested though I believe it was done for reduced drag. So, not sure if the spoiler was there to stabilize.
That said, there is a right up on Fitfreak.net for increasing the spoiler angle.
_ said:The Fit sport body kit was actually aero tested though I believe it was done for reduced drag. So, not sure if the spoiler was there to stabilize.
That said, there is a right up on Fitfreak.net for increasing the spoiler angle.
Yup reduced drag. I read something at some point that the sport aero is good for like 1/2 to 1 mpg gain on the highway over the base model.
OK guys lack of front sway bar is not the cause for the radical change in balance; Yelo stated he hasn't changed the sway bar set up and he previously had slight understeer with no front bar. Reinstalling the front bar would solve the oversteer but would he then have problems putting power down on exit?
There are some things to ponder:
The car has massive oversteer is it on corner entry, mid corner or exit?
Yelo removed items/weight from the car. Was this enough to change the balance?
With the addition of wider tires were wider wheels with different off-sets installed?
Are the damper rebound adjustable only, compression & rebound, or can the rebound and compression be adjusted separately.
Despite the oversteer is the car faster?
If it were my car these were the things I would check:
The front to rear weight balance.
Alignment, specifically front and rear toe.
If the car has corner entry oversteer I'd put them back to what they were and see what that does.
The problem has to be in one of the changes: weight removal, damper settings, wheel and tires. By returning the set up back to what is was one item at a time that would isolate the issue.
My comment in bold caracters
Tom1200 said:OK guys lack of front sway bar is not the cause for the radical change in balance; Yelo stated he hasn't changed the sway bar set up and he previously had slight understeer with no front bar. Reinstalling the front bar would solve the oversteer but would he then have problems putting power down on exit?
It's already a challenge putting power down....
There are some things to ponder:
The car has massive oversteer is it on corner entry, mid corner or exit?
i'd say, entrie to mid corner
Yelo removed items/weight from the car. Was this enough to change the balance?
sure is enough and I believe it's the root of my problem
With the addition of wider tires were wider wheels with different off-sets installed?
was 15x7, now 15x9, same offset on both set and all corners...
Are the damper rebound adjustable only, compression & rebound, or can the rebound and compression be adjusted separately.
i believe rebound and compression at same time.
Despite the oversteer is the car faster?
Deffinitely
If it were my car these were the things I would check:
The front to rear weight balance.
Alignment, specifically front and rear toe.
If the car has corner entry oversteer I'd put them back to what they were and see what that does.
I tried my old wheels and tires, same probleme as new ones...
The problem has to be in one of the changes: weight removal, damper settings, wheel and tires. By returning the set up back to what is was one item at a time that would isolate the issue.
Car was down right dangerous with last season suspension setup, working on shocks settings and tire pressure got me to an acceptable but be cautious setup, working on locating some softer rear springs...
Last corner weight session.....
kevlarcorolla said:codrus said:So I'm not an expert on setting up FWD cars, but I think if you're saying the car is too loose and that it has no front sway bar, then that's the answer to your problem right there...
Never reduce the grip of the end that's working unless its a short term fix.....sway bars on light low cars reduce overall grip across the axle used on.
Check the rear is actually loosing grip and sliding or rear steering due to sloppy toe link bushings.
Take 5 min and remove one endlink on the rear sway bar.....if its better then the rear is too stiff and needs softer rear springs and/or rear bar.(lsd or not would have an effect on my route to take)
For autox areo thats effective it needs to be aggressive,a stock spoiler won't make a bit of difference.
Rear suspension tweaks are needed before going down the areo rabbit hole imho.
I'm with you on fixing the problematic end of the car first .
it's beam axle car similar too old VW rabbit, so I vote loosing grip.
no end link to remove due to design of the bar that is bolted to the axle beam on both end. Working on finding softer spring. And yes I got an LSD! Mfactory gear type.
since I still have the factory spoiler, I'll put it back on and see.... but I doubt seeing a big difference....
Can you remove the rear bar? Or does the design prevent it? Good idea about trying softer rear springs.
CyberEric said:Can you remove the rear bar? Or does the design prevent it? Good idea about trying softer rear springs.
I guess I could but it's more work than springs in my case and it's all about time it take to make change on lunch break at the races....
Well they say run big bars with soft springs or heavy springs with small bars. You seem to have upset it, when you stripped it out, before even doing too much work, I'd throw some wieght in the back and see how it works. fwd cars are already "light in the ass" so to speak. You may very well need slightly softer springs in the back with that bar, since you don't have a front bar and stiff springs. You want enough give to grip. Something like that.
Yelo said:10k front 12k rear
How did you decide on those spring rates? It seems like they're way too high, especially in the rear.
Let's back up;
Why was the front bar disconnected? I repeated why was the front bar disconnected?
Was it to get rid of understeer?
If it was install a softer front bar. A coupe of us mentioned fix the end that has the problem. If the bar was disconnected to fix the front and you now have big oversteer, then the end that needs fixing is the front.
Again if the front bar was removed to fix the understeer and now your playing with the rear to fix the first fix (front bar) your pissing up a rope.
Tom1200 said:Let's back up;
Why was the front bar disconnected? I repeated why was the front bar disconnected?
Was it to get rid of understeer?
If it was install a softer front bar. A coupe of us mentioned fix the end that has the problem. If the bar was disconnected to fix the front and you now have big oversteer, then the end that needs fixing is the front.
Again if the front bar was removed to fix the understeer and now your playing with the rear to fix the first fix (front bar) your pissing up a rope.
Sorry Tom I disagree,if removing/softening the front increased oversteer then the front is making more grip.
Leave it alone for the time being and look for ways to increase rear grip to suit.
If you can quite get it where you want then add back a smaller front bar assuming some rear grip improvements where made.
I always tune from the end not working 1st and never reduce the grip of the end that is working unless its a last resort.
Soften the rear springs,soften the rear bar,soften rear tire pressures,soften dampers if adjustable,add rear toe in,add rear camber.
Some might not be possible with the reelar suspension design however
Sorry Tom I disagree,if removing/softening the front increased oversteer then the front is making more grip.
The problem with this argument is that removing the front bar essentially always increases oversteer, so if you follow that argument to its logical conclusion then no car should ever have sway bars on it.
You'll need to log in to post.
