New cam, comes with zinc (ZDDP) requirements?

1989 Toyota 22re, and I'm looking at a cam from a respected vendor who states:

"All new Toyota Camshafts Require Oil with Zinc"

Honestly, I'm really not thrilled about adding zinc to my oil (I run Mobile 1 Super 2000) or for having to import a specialty oil with zinc to the area at possibly great expense when compared to buying from the local market.  Plus, IIRC zinc is a catalyzer killer.

My question is, why?

I'm suspecting this requirement might have something to do with the cam not being heat treated (similar to an RV cam)?  Or perhaps this is simply remnants of "old school" thinking that's carried over from the 70's and before? 

What thoughts sayest thou?  As far as I know, Toyota never stated any zinc (zddp) requirements for a 22r.  Honestly, I've never given it a single thought or had a single oil related issue over the course of 120k+ miles (on a single truck).

For comparison, a spendier (and also well respected) vendor makes no mention of zinc with regards to their cams.  I was thinking that perhaps they're heat treating them, hence the greater expense?

Cheers guys, and thanks.

We've had them go flat on break-in, even with ZDDP oil.

A diesel engine oil will have the zinc you need. Just run it for break-in.

Or get a bottle of GM EOS (engine oil supplement).

The 22R was made before the environmental requirements changed oils. Probably why Toyota never called for a specific oil.

It's really not that big of a deal to run dinosaur juice for one oil change to be sure you don't wipe out a cam lobe. TBH, at work we use Rotella or Delo in any car with flat tappets and have no trouble. I'm sure AGIP makes something that will work.

ShawnG said:

We've had them go flat on break-in, even with ZDDP oil.

A diesel engine oil will have the zinc you need. Just run it for break-in.

Or get a bottle of GM EOS (engine oil supplement).

The 22R was made before the environmental requirements changed oils. Probably why Toyota never called for a specific oil.

It's really not that big of a deal to run dinosaur juice for one oil change to be sure you don't wipe out a cam lobe. TBH, at work we use Rotella or Delo in any car with flat tappets and have no trouble. I'm sure AGIP makes something that will work.

 

Aha!

Ok.  If it's just for the break in procedure, that changes things.  That's not a problem at all.  I was thinking this was going to be a "from here on...", and of course google just made the waters muddier.

One bottle of ZDDP additive for a break-in is plenty do-able.  The idea of trying to explain to locals that this old POS needs super special vegan juice every oil change was what was giving me anxiety

Good times

I used assembly lube when I dropped a new cam (msm intake cam...) in the miata, didn't use any other zinc additive.

I let it run for a bit, then dumped the oil and filter. 

A few miles and auto-x later, life and lobes are grand. 

Play with caveman parts and vehicles and pay not caveman prices.

But yes some unicorn pee will at least be needed on initial startup and I would go at least one more oil change. Even the diesel oils have hardly any zinc in their composition due to  catalysts. 

Looks like i can get some zddp additive from the uk for a decent price.  One bottle would be enough gor two oil changes at roughly 2000ppm.

Thanks guys.

Why should it be necessary on an OHC engine?  They don't have the same issues as a cam in block design with respect to lifter loads and small lobe size.

Flat tappet cams definitely need some ZDDP for break in.  I agree that being OHC should greatly reduce the concern.  But it still won't hurt to give it some extra until the cam is well broken in.  Once it's broken in, unless it's a setup that puts a lot of lift on the cam lobes, it shouldn't take all that much ZDDP to keep it alive. 

The only engines I've got with flat tappet cams just get 15W-40 diesel oil and they do fine, although none are high performance cams or running stiff valve springs. 

Watch the old diesel oil myth, the current crop doesn't have the quantity that CJ4 had.

In reply to chandler :

Ayup.  Diesels (with pushrods) have roller lifters and catalysts now, too.

What is interesting to me is that Motorcraft I-forget-the-name specification oil called out for 6.7 Powerstrokes does not meet any API specifications.  I don't know if this is because Ford didn't bother to spend the money to certify the oil, or if its additive package has some stuff that doesn't meet API specs.

Either way, I figure it's probably a decently low ash oil if they are using it in trucks with soot traps, so it's probably going to be a low carbon deposit oil.  And it's only like $30 for five quarts.  That is like two quarts of Driven.

My engine builder said I should add one can of BG  MOA to the oil.  Added it to the Driven break-in oil for the the first period.

I do the BG MOA with each oil change even though I'm using Driven oil.  (buy it on the interweb)

My older Pinto race engines (OHC), I used Diesel oil, or oil for Harley Motorcycles.

In reply to Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) :

Freshly machined parts still have micro edges on them and zinc and potassium help rubbing surfaces wear together smoothly. 

In reply to frenchyd :

In all likelihood it will be parkerized.

Cams and cam grinding is my thing, specifically OHC applications. Yours is an OHC rocker arm application with a decent size lobe and light loads.

You don't need it. I've never recommended it, never used it, and never had a cam go bad in over 40 years. When I do cylinder head assemblies I use a sealed power assembly lube, but it's not necessary either. Use a motorcycle oil for break in if you think you should do something

Every flat tappet cam made of cast iron is hardened.  It must be.  RV or not.

I have no experience with the 22r, but I have built dozens of flat-tappet old V8s and broke them in without ZDDP and they were fine.  I don't know if that translates to 22rs, so basically, don't listen to me.

I certainly don't think running ZDDP in a crankcase for 1000 miles while you break in a cam will kill the catalyst.  Might it be possible to toss in an export pipe in place of the Cat for a few oil changes?

In reply to Mr. Peabody 

I agree that parkerizing is good for cams  but Isky and Crower  have sent me break in lube for each can I've ground. They  charged extra for Parkerizing as does my local grinder. 
I don't know about Crower and Isky but getting cams parkerized here seems hit and miss. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

22R has sliding followers with minimal motion ratio.  So the loads at the cam lobe are a lot lower, and it's a flat edge that is wiping the cam instead of a point load like a cam in block engine's tapered lobe and rounded lifter.

chandler said:

Watch the old diesel oil myth, the current crop doesn't have the quantity that CJ4 had.

Agreed.  Most of the modern stuff still has enough ZDDP for low performance flat tappet stuff (at least once it's broken in), but it may not be enough for a high performance cam with stiff valve springs, etc. 

Any quality "racing" oil that is non synthetic and popular in the circle track world is designed for flat tappet cams and has all the required lubrication needed. Schaffer's and Champion to name a couple. There are several more too. Most likely still not the best for a catalitic converter but at least you don't have to worry about the cam going flat.

If your cam mfg is saying to use zddp, I wouldn't berkeley around with it. Ask them *very* specifically if it's just for break in or all the time. Many of these aftermarket cams are made to non oem specs and heat treatment on some questionable quality blanks. There is one brand of cams I use that I wouldn't run without zinc all the time, the others not at all or just break in. 

I got a lot onthis but work is nuts. I'll stop in later.

Havent gotten into engine building, but I have my bugeye with a 73 spridget 1275 A series in it.   I dont have a history on the motor, but I can see that the block has had machine work done (there is a rivited on tag that would only have been removed if it was surfaced) so, one would assume that if it was dont after about 1980 that it would have hardened valve seats, so no need for lead additive needed. (if assumption is wrong, well, I have a spare engine on the shelf).

That said, I am using the Lucas "Hot Rod" oil to get the needed viscosity and the ZDDP content for the cam. 

There is a lot of moving targets with automotive fluids. Gas, oil, brakes, etc.  Unleaded gas, ethanol added, etc.  I could run pump gas in my F500 with likely only a bit of jet work, but dont because I dont want the ethanol mucking up the carbs (ethanol and aluminium dont get along the best, especially on something that sits) and more worryingly the fuel cell and foam. (replacement cost of cell is close to $1k and a pain to R&R).   I run it infrequently enough that the big negative is an hour round trip to a place that sells race gas rather than the cost really. 

Never used it my self but I know more than a couple people that build engines and they swear by this stuff.  I figure it can not hurt anything so why not use it.  A case for $100 is a lot cheeper than rebuilding  motor that wipes a cam lobe flat.

https://lnengineering.com/joe-gibbs-racing-driven-break-in-driven-br-15w50-oil-case-of-12-quarts-00106.html

If you are that concerned about it call the cam manufacturer and get info from them.  They should know what is best for there cam.  They may even give you a specific break in procedure.  IF they do I would follow it to the letter.  

Anecdotally I rebuilt probably a hundred 4AGE motors of the same vintage and I always used oil high in zink and phosphorous for the initial break in.  I never had a single problem.   I used Redline products exclusively when doing initial break in.  

OK, I have a few quick minutes here. ZDDP is an EP additive that was used for eons to help with flat tappet camshaft designs handle the extra load and stress. WAAAAAY back when it wasn't uncommon to see 1500-2000ppm of Zinc and Phos in a gasoline engine oil. The downside is long term zinc can be bad for certain catalyst materials if its burning. When they started dialing back the ZDDP to the point that most gas engine oils are around 4-600ppm of them. It's still there, just in smaller amounts. How much your cam needs for long term is something I'd check with the cam manufacturer and revert to the oil spec for that engine. Use whatever spec fluid it was designed for as a rough estimate on what you need long term.

CJ4 diesel engine oil is what a lot of old school people turned to. Many of them still used 1000-1200ppm of Z and Ph along with added amounts of boron and magnesium in some witches brew to do the same thing. The downside is you were limited on viscosities (mostly a 40 blend of some form) and they came in gallon jugs. But, the general rule of thumb for lubrication is you do not have the suggested viscosity you will be better off going to the next thicker for protection. A 30 (5w30, 10w30) runs in the 9-11cSt. 40 are around 11.5-15. 

Now, for break in I'd recommend a high ZDDP. Long term is something I'd default to the cam and engine manfacturer. 

Now.... the new CK4 is a lot like the older Gas engine oils in the 5-700 range and the FA4 has none. Or next to none. Instead, they're using a different EP additive commonly seen in gear lubes that has a crap ton of Potassium and Boron..... and that looks like a coolant leak when it's misidentffied

Thanks guys.  I finally got word back from the mfgr (time difference makes things take forever sometimes).

Lift on the cam is going from .398/.385 to .425/.425.  The zddp is recommended for break in AND from here on after (boo).  They listed valvoline Vr1 as an example of what they recommend.

Cam is on order, so i'll check the specs of their recommendation and compare it to what i can find locally 

Good times

Good news!  Valvoline VR1 is available locally for about $10 a liter.

Interesting news:

Valvoline says API oils are backwards compatible, and boy are they not pulling any punches when they say it: