new car blues - racing for under $15,000

So I get my new issue of GRM and read it cover to cover and back five times immediately (of course) and something is bugging me now. The great article about racing for cheap is hugely entertaining. Now I am not intending to go class racing any time soon, but I am in the middle of a resto mod on an old GMC PU and wanted to buy a nice DD with the proceeds. Here's the dig - I have been a straight line guy for a while, and Lemons (Tunachuckers - that's us) got me interested in something that can turn and maybe do a track day a few times a year and maybe an autocross or five. Not class racing, but something nimble and fun that I can stuff my kid in the back of. Nothing like the Camaro that ran 12s during high school.

So I was thinking E30 or E36, with a side of Suzuki Swift GT and maybe 300ZX. It doesn't matter, E30 was at the top of the list. I had never owned a German car, and E30s are supposed to handle really well.

So why is the CMC car so much faster than the Spec E30 car? Jeez - it's faster than the spec Miata car! The hardest part to believe is how much faster they are considering they've been neutered in terms of what HP they can make. Any real person building a small block that makes less than 250 HP has to be building a truck. So, with basic modifications, a wimpy third gen Camaro can outrun an E30 with similar basic modifications?

Surely they must be joking...

So I check online for the records at various tracks - maybe that was just a high hp track or something.

Nope - CMC cars are almost always faster. What gives!? I don't really want another Camaro (and I'm not a Mustang guy either) but I want something that can make a decent track car with four seats (Sorry Miata guys) (oh, and I also really don't want a P71) and I want to get into the car (in decent DD condition) for less than 4K. I thought an E30 was perfect!

OK everyone - I have rambled and raved. Any ideas? Sell me on this E30 thing. Maybe I'll just drive the old Amazon to work.

-Brian Faithful Tunachucker

If I had any idea what a CMC was, I might be able to answer your question...

ww wrote: If I had any idea what a CMC was, I might be able to answer your question...

I'm guessing Camaro-Mustang Challenge.

And I think the answer is power/weight, particularly the extra torque, and big tires. Don't forget that those muscle cars will be going through consumables at a higher rate. Spec Miatas and E30s don't get to build up the engines to make tons of extra power.

AHHH! Did anybody see the lights go on?! ;)

Yeah, V8's with tons of low-end torque and wide sticky tires.

Price tires for a CMC vs a E30 and the choice should be fairly easy.

Indeed, my mustang (auto-x) runs a 275 series tire and my E30 runs something like a 195 or a 205 series tire. that can make a big difference in corner speeds. Also while there is something like a 200lb difference (or more?) in the cars theres also an almost 100hp difference.

My E30 is supposedly 2865 lbs and my Mustang could be something like 3200.

E30 165/2865= .05759 hp/lb Mustang 250/3200=.07812 hp/lb
right there in the power to weight ratio is a very large part of the difference.

Now... cost of a set of tires.. I cant remember what they run as a spec tire in each series, but ill use Nitto Nt-01 as an example (prices from discount tire direct) set of tires for E30 ~$496 set for mustang ~$828 apply same to brake pads, fuel consumption, ect..

As far as working on it and it being German, I am a mustang guy who got an E30 (its a beater, but ive been wrenching on it) parts are a touch harder to find (cant just go to NAPA as much), BUT if you can wait for an internet order and you shop around a bit it can be cheaper then the CMC cars parts or about the same. brake parts will be cheaper. Yes, theres more fiddly bits (alot of ball joints in the front suspension), BUT its a more elegant design then the control arm for the mustang that the shop that i had press the new bushings in thought were for a truck.

Its a nice little tossable car that is alot of fun to drive. The mustang can just be scary stupid fast (well, mine is 320ish hp) in comparison. I would say that you would be better served by the E30 as a learning vehicle in all likelihood.

Apexcarver wrote: Also while there is something like a 200lb difference (or more?) in the cars theres also an almost 100hp difference. My E30 is supposedly 2865 lbs and my Mustang could be something like 3200. E30 165/2865= .05759 hp/lb Mustang 250/3200=.07812 hp/lb right there in the power to weight ratio is a very large part of the difference.

And there is an even bigger discrepancy in torque figures. Maybe that Mustang is "only" making 250hp, but it is also making 330#' of torque, or more. That E30, is only going to have around 160#'.

Actually, I suspect the power discrepancies are greater than even that. Those numbers on the CMC cars are for WHP measured on a dyno. That 165hp for an E30 is at the crank.

Didn't realize that the 165HP was at the crank. That makes the power difference much bigger.

With the CMC cars, it's easy to make a small block make 400 reliable hp for very little cash and still have a great torque curve. They limit to 250 or whatever to make it a lot easier on parts (and safer I expect). Is there a similar situation with the E30? Are they being held back by some fairly obvious constraint imposed upon them by the rules?

In other words, if I was going to go road racing on track days and still wanted to maintain streetability, was still on a budget and didn't care about classing the car, what could I do to the little E30?

Thanks for the helpful responses - the parts cost is a big factor. That's why this board is great.

-Brian

One of the points of a Spec Series is to prevent people from buying hop-up parts. They don't allow you to really do anything to build up the engine. As the article about Spec E30 in GRM last year said: "If we open up the rules and everyone goes a little bit faster, all we've done is lighten everyone's wallets."

If you want a hopped up car, you don't want a spec racer.

Understood completely - don't misunderstand me. I don't want to go spec racing. Well, of course I do, but I can't now. Not with this car.

The point is that I was just using both platforms as a basis for comparison. I wanted to see how a spec E30 would compare to a CMC car and a spec Miata, because that's roughly the level I'd like to be at in terms of vehicle.

In other words, if building a Camaro, I would follow a lot of the handling cues from the CMC rulebook just because they are likely great starting points, but I would build the engine to whatever. It's not intended to be a spec car.

So, if I bought an E30, some things I would use from the spec series just because they might be good places to start, but the question is, what obvious thing is there that the spec series does not allow that would make the E30 a much better overall track day and street car? Is there 50hp hidden in the intake manifold? 25 in the exhaust? Are the rear suspension pickup points wrong? That kind of stuff. I am not a BMW guy (yet, maybe) so I don't know what the spec series limits that would be super easy on any other E30...

Does that make more sense?

-Brian

without building a motor with $$$$ parts, forced induction, or motor swaps i dont think theres really fast easy power for an E30 for a reasonable price. chips, filter tract, exhaust... maybe a cam.. from what ive seen thats about it.

There ARE E30's rolling around with LS1's in them though

make it reliable, make it handle, and remember that generally the farther you take a motor from stock the less reliable it will be.

in other words, seat time, suspension, THEN motor... (seat time should be almost all consuming, so other then making it reliable, ignore motor if its fast enough to be interesting)

Maybe look to an E36 M3 if you want something with a back seat and substantially more power.

The M3 is too much of an investment for right now, but it's not beyond me to get an E36 318 and save for an LS1 swap later....

hmmm

tuna55 wrote: The M3 is too much of an investment for right now, but it's not beyond me to get an E36 318 and save for an LS1 swap later.... hmmm

I'm seeing decent running E36 M3's for $5k-$7k. And that's out here in Cali, where car prices are higher. And not just "I've seen one for that price." But there are at least 3 on the local Craigslist right now in that price range. They might have salvaged or rebuilt titles... but I wouldn't sweat that too much for a track rat.

^What he said. I bought an ~85k mile example in "very good" condition with a salvage title for ~4800USD. I plan to spend another $1000-1500 taking care of deferred (or potentially deferred) maintenance. Otherwise, find a decent 325i or 328i: I understand that both can make very good trackday vehicles once they've been freshened up.

Depending where you are, you may find a solid e30 (they're hard to find here in the rustbelt). If I were building a trackrat e30, without much regard for class rules, my plans would involve swapping a 24V motor from the e34/e36: 2.5, 2.8, 3.0 or 3.2. I'd also consider a 318ti with the same swap.

The E30 or Miata will teach you to drive faster. The power of the V8 cars will mask your driving deficiencies.

I would not dismiss at least starting out with a Spec prepared car. The costs will be less, you'll learn to drive more precisely and you'll have an excellent way to compare your lap times to those classes even if you don't compete in them. When you are ready to go faster, simply sell the Spec car and buy a faster car. Trying to build more speed into a car is expensive and not always a good value. Buying the next faster car is always a better deal.

Good points, all of them. I still can't afford an M3 though. 4K is pretty much the limit for a mostly running driving "nice" car.

For some reason the wagons and hatches speak to me - how come there are so few wagon E30s?

Any rigidity loss or weight gain with 4 door vs 2 door or a wagon?

I am glad you've all talked me out of an F body - not another yet.

-brian

Fair enough, I was looking at your post title (racing under 15k) I LOVE wagon e30's, but they weren't sold in North America. Quite a few have been imported locally (Canadia), but I'm fairly sure there is no legitimate, legal way to import them to the US.

Oh, I see, I was quoting the article from GRM that disheartened me initially. My fault.

tuna55 wrote: For some reason the wagons and hatches speak to me - how come there are so few wagon E30s?

If you like Wagons, E30-esque cars, and the ability to easily modify for more power, I have two words for you:

Turbo. Brick.

Can I point out with amusement how nobody has brought up how fact these cars are with a LIVE AXLE????

E-

Is the reason a Miata hasn't been recommended simply because the word "E30" is somewhere in this thread? Because i'm really confused right now, and i need someone to hold me.

Keep in mind E30s are usually in really bad shape, so allow time and money to fix all of the problems if you are thinking about getting one. If you are good at working on cars yourself, and have money for maintance, porsche 944s and alfa milaos and gtv6s are fun too.

93celicaGT2 wrote: Is the reason a Miata hasn't been recommended simply because the word "E30" is somewhere in this thread? Because i'm really confused right now, and i need someone to hold me.

tuna55 wrote: ... I want something that can make a decent track car with four seats (Sorry Miata guys) (oh, and I also really don't want a P71) ...

The answer to that on this board is usually two miatas!