In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Man, I do not miss living in Cleveland! Your climate is brutal on cars.
I don't think that would fail an inspection in NC.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Man, I do not miss living in Cleveland! Your climate is brutal on cars.
I don't think that would fail an inspection in NC.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
As long as the pads are good I think that would pass NY inspection. As long as the rotors aren't cracked or excessively scored (in a way that would impact braking performance) they're good to go. Doesn't matter how crusty the non-contact surfaces are and nothing says the contact surfaces have to look perfect.
My 2015 1.8tsi Jetta I hoped would be close to a 'forever' car but it going through a quart of oil every tank of gas has me annoyed. It's reliable, as I just put fuel and oil in it but my 64 Impala consumed way less with 135k miles on it.
I'm of the opinion that modern cars are and will remain more reliable and as always with this question there is complete nostalgia and survivor bias at play.
I had a minute and best I could come up with as back of the napkin plot was looking as far back as I could find with the JD Power reliability rankings. Here is the high, average, and low of the results, lower numbers = fewer problems reported in first 3 years of ownership. Looks like it's gotten progressively better across the board and 2022 is noted as having a lot of supply chain and production issues.
https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-vehicle-dependability-study
Looking at a couple of studies, "Iseecars" seems to be a go to referenced by JDPower/Forbes/et.al. Doesn't definitively break down the years 2000-present but does show and upward trend that continues.https://www.iseecars.com/cars-people-keep-longest-study and also https://www.iseecars.com/car-lifespan-study
I think they're more reliable, but much more difficult to work on.
Anecdotal story with strong recency bias: I owned three IS-Fs. I typically buy them with 50-60k, drive them to 150k and then sell them. Up until recently, the only non-consumable repair had been a water pump ($120) on the very first one.
Last weekend a bunch of issues cropped up which caused me to do the valve cover gaskets and spark plugs on the current one (113k on the odo). Though it was only a few hundred in parts, I spent nearly 6 hour removing clips, connectors, wiring harnesses etc just to get the valve covers off. Tight engine bays and an over abundance of sensors absolutely makes servicing modern cars a bear.
I wish there was a way to normalize reliaibility across changing regulations. The Cafe regs and the need to cover emissions equipment out to 150k have really changed cars generally for the better. But I doubt early 2000's cars could meet those regulations.
sorta like diesels. Pre 07 mostly reliable but legitimately linked to killing operators. Many studies done on LA port truck drivers, people who live around LA port and even London cabbies. Post 07 arguably worse reliability but less death.
on a whole I think more reliability given shifting regulations and demands from consumer etc.
In reply to sevenracer :
No offense to our Cleveland friends, but the 4 years I spent there were more than enough for the rest of my life.
The one weekend I spent in Cleveland was about two days too many. But we digress.
I noticed the uptick in long term reliability of certain cars way back in the 1990s. Most folks were still ditching cars at 100,000 because they believed they would be worn out like their parents' 1960s cars. I started buying cars at 100k and driving them to nearly, or over, 200k miles. And I had very few problems...but I also chose my battles wisely.
I deal with cars at work every day and see people keeping them much longer now, and the used values reflect this is a complete attitude change. The accepted lifespan is now at least 150k if not higher. People will buy my 200k mile cars when I'm done with them, and give me more than $500. Much more. I like that. 
But, we've also passed a threshold where I dread getting the next 'newer' car because the technology and non-DIY nature of them means I've pretty much got to send them out for much more than basic servicing and brake pads. And I hate that. But, I'm probably in the minority. Most people just write checks (and those checks are pretty big nowadays). I hate paying people to do things I can do, but if I need a $10,000 computer to reset some system after I work on it, I have to tap out.
Cars today go further and last longer. Many, but not all, are very reliable. But they are highly specialized and very expensive to fix now. And I no longer find them particularly interesting. Not to mention styling is completely dead.
I feel like in the last 10 years there has been an general decrease in longevity of engines. It should also he noted that the average power output has greatly increased in that time as well.
Emissions & fuel economy standards are requiring smaller turbo direct injection engines, but everyone want 300 + horsepower out of them as well. This leads to more stressed engines & higher failure rates.
Ev's may eliminate oil consumption & carbon issues but I don't feel like they will be as trouble free as some think.
My theory about new cars is direct injection engines punish those who don't change their oil.
Perhaps modern engines are less forgiving of carelessness. A LOT of people have no mechanical sympathy.. and in recent years they are getting punished for it.
The last time we had abuse tolerant engines, we had 7+ liter V8s that made 160hp, and 5 liter V8s that made 110hp, and somehow they were still worn out after 100k.
No, I won't.
This thread title looks like something we would see on social media.
I think that given their complexity, modern cars are amazingly reliable. My first three cars were a 1964 Ranchero, a 1968 Datsun 1600 roadster and a 1974 Capri. None of them were anywhere near as reliable as my post-2000 vehicles despite being far less complex. It's not just better manufacturing technology, it's better corporate culture and emphasis on quality.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:The last time we had abuse tolerant engines, we had 7+ liter V8s that made 160hp, and 5 liter V8s that made 110hp, and somehow they were still worn out after 100k.
My 1997 1/2 ton V8 Chevy went 397,xxx miles and went to the Junkyard with the original engine/ trans etc still in good shape using 1/2 quart between oil changes.
Flapping fenders and doors from rust is what condemned it not anything mechanical.
My 2016 Ford F150 has 88,000 miles with a $400 4x4 solenoid it's. Only defect so far. ( no rust).
I fully expect it to last the rest of my life.
Caperix said:I feel like in the last 10 years there has been an general decrease in longevity of engines. It should also he noted that the average power output has greatly increased in that time as well.
Emissions & fuel economy standards are requiring smaller turbo direct injection engines, but everyone want 300 + horsepower out of them as well. This leads to more stressed engines & higher failure rates.
Ev's may eliminate oil consumption & carbon issues but I don't feel like they will be as trouble free as some think.
Actual mechanical complexity of any EV is trivial. One simple Motor no cams, no valves, no pistons no connecting rods, no oil changes, no transmission.
Yes electronics but much of which can be "repaired" remotely while charging.
I've got a Boom box that's at least 30 years old and I listen to Cassettes that are older than that while working.
Every few years I take a broom to it and sweep the built up dust and cobwebs off. Maintenance?
Wicked93gs said:Can't beat the law of entropy. THe more moving parts you have, the greater the chance of failure(everything else being equal) and today's engines have a LOT of moving parts.
Actually you can. Overhead cams need much lighter valve springs to do the same job that lifters, pushrods, rocker arms used to do. That softer , lighter valve assembly reduces chain wear and lifter wear.
frenchyd said:Caperix said:I feel like in the last 10 years there has been an general decrease in longevity of engines. It should also he noted that the average power output has greatly increased in that time as well.
Emissions & fuel economy standards are requiring smaller turbo direct injection engines, but everyone want 300 + horsepower out of them as well. This leads to more stressed engines & higher failure rates.
Ev's may eliminate oil consumption & carbon issues but I don't feel like they will be as trouble free as some think.
Actual mechanical complexity of any EV is trivial. One simple Motor no cams, no valves, no pistons no connecting rods, no oil changes, no transmission.
Yes electronics but much of which can be "repaired" remotely while charging.
I've got a Boom box that's at least 30 years old and I listen to Cassettes that are older than that while working.
Every few years I take a broom to it and sweep the built up dust and cobwebs off. Maintenance?
Rotary engines have less moving parts as well, but I don't think anyone would call them more reliable. Hopefully the electric motors will be reliable but how many alternators have you seen fail. I am more worried about the battery packs though.
I don't think that evs will stay without a transmission for long. Porche already uses a 2 speed. The battle for range & the rising cost off batteries will lead to more transmissions in evs.
In a broad sense, I'd say reliability is the same if not better. I just think they're more EXPENSIVE to maintain because of the parts just being more complex/costly. Some of them definitely aren't dummy proof thanks to low tension piston rings, direct injection (without port injection) etc.
I think reliability is continuing to get better. However repairability will probably get worse. The simple fact is that modern cars are now fully of computer modules and some of them are a VIN locked so failures in those modules will make them much harder to repair. Add in that diagonising and repair those modules is much hard if you can't find the parts.
I think for the average person a modern car will prove to be longer lasting but for people like us that do our own repairs and tend to keep cars on the road longer, they may well be more difficult.
Caperix said:Rotary engines have less moving parts as well, but I don't think anyone would call them more reliable.
I would They are popular in the homebuilt aircraft community for this reason.
Plus, if something happens and you lose all the coolant, they WILL keep running and making power even with temperatures sky high. They won't ever start again after they cool down, but you have the option of choosing where and when to land, which is more important.
One of the most durable Japanese engines was the Mazda 12A.
In reply to 93EXCivic :
Exactly. It's like me finding my way around EFI. I was doing mechanical fuel injection from my teenage years. SU / Webers and domestic carbs were a cake walk.
But EFI? I bought magazines, books, asked for guidance and got a lot of monkey see monkey do advice but no understanding of what things were doing.
It was made worse by my trying to learn Jaguar EFI. While Jaguar was trying to learn EFI. ;-) They'd make a thousand or so systems and then change. Another thousand and another change. My best guess is 10 different systems were used in the 22 years of production.
Few if any really figured it out until OBD2 came in and it figured things out for mechanics.
More reliable until they fail and harder to keep going after they fail.
Murilee Martin/Phil Greden did an interesting article looking at sets of photos over time and showing the average age of the cars in the photos. As time went on, the average age of the cars got higher and higher.
I'm in favor of the sweet spot, new enough to have OBDII and fuel injection and somewhat modern coatings, but old enough that I can grab a "_____" from the junkyard and replace the thing that's broken.
We briefly owned a modern(lol, 20yo) Mercedes that was rendered inoperable when the rear window regulators were unplugged. Systems so interconnected that small failures take out the whole.
My biggest worry in buying a modern(2020+) car is in all the little electrical doodads. I've replaced plenty of switches and the like in my BMW/Jeep at 20 years old, and I'm more scared of doing it to a 2020 car in 2040.
93EXCivic said:I think for the average person a modern car will prove to be longer lasting but for people like us that do our own repairs and tend to keep cars on the road longer, they may well be more difficult.
This is the answer and why we're having the conversation. Most people have been farming out their oil changes, brake jobs, etc. for the past 40-50 years. That key customer base is having a much easier time with new cars being more robust. People who do their own work are a small minority.
Just throwing it out there that at nearly 53, I'm old enough to remember when dodging a rusted off muffler wasn't all that uncommon. When was the last time you saw that? As a motorcyclist who occasionally rides at night, I'm glad those days are gone.
I'm 79 and It seems I was always changing points and plugs. Glad those days are gone. Not sure about reliability but I do find new cars to be more annoying with buzzers, reminders, and other nanny stuff. I do like power windows and heated/cooled seats.
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