New experience and is there a better way to "fix" it?

I got sidetracked yesterday about the whole engine thingy.... But I was on the way into work yesterday morning. Temps were right around freezing so roads were not slick but not dry either. Entered the new round-about near the house and for the first time I experienced lift throttle oversteer.... in a 20' long truck. Now, I almost went into FWD default (smash gas, it'll be fine) which would have ended disastrously with destroyed wheels and such. But smarter (??) head prevailed and I rode it out. Luckily it only slid the ass end about 3-4' before it caught and away I went. I'm used to this thing just plowing like a John Deere in spring on slickish pavement that is the corrected by judicious throttle to get the ass end around. This was new.

So, braintrust that is GRM, what is the best way to "catch" or "save" lift throttle oversteer on a RWD vehicle? Obviously when in doubt smash the gas, make smoke and exit sideways is always fun, but not necessarily practical on city streets. 

A driving course I took had us on skid pads with Suburbans. The objective was to induce oversteer in the same manner you're describing. The way we were taught to handle the situation was to let off the gas and let the steering recenter itself (don't just let go obviously.) The oversteer corrects itself pretty quickly and you can get back on the gas.

I didn't kill any sprinklers or flip the vehicle so I guess it works. Worked on the Crown Vics that we were on track with as well.

Yeah, the long wheelbase helps catch oversteer nicely because NOTHING happens fast. I can induce snap oversteer quickly on my 78 but it's about 3 feet shorter in wheelbase. I find myself one-handing the steering wheel (palming it) when I do get oversteer in it. 

 +1 for staying off the gas.

The0retical said:

A driving course I took had us on skid pads with Suburbans. The objective was to induce oversteer in the same manner you're describing. The way we were taught to handle the situation was to let off the gas and let the steering recenter itself (don't just let go obviously.) The oversteer corrects itself pretty quickly and you can get back on the gas.

I didn't kill any sprinklers or flip the vehicle so I guess it works. Worked on the Crown Vics that we were on track with as well.

By "let the steering recenter itself" do they mean to actually center the steering or to let the wheels go where they want? Because the latter is basically an idiotproof form of countersteering, and countersteering is another thing I would do. Drift cars have a ton of caster so the driver can toss the wheel and the car will self-countersteer this way.

Slow in, Fast out is my mantra, and it becomes even more applicable in cold weather.

bobzilla said:

...but not necessarily practical on city streets. 

I have witnessed you being very unpractical in this same round about once before.  

In reply to John Welsh :

Actually not this one.... they were just starting to build this one when y'all were down/up

In my limited experience track driving that's what I do when the rear comes out(113" wheelbase). I let off the throttle and let the caster re-center the wheel. I've tried keeping in it and fighting the wheel but that usually ends up having a few pendulum swings instead of a single return swing. 

In the Jeep when I've gotten major lift throttle oversteer on dirt, carefully feeding in just a little bit of throttle sometimes helps, as it gets a little bit of rearward weight transfer and gets engine braking load off the rear tires.  In more mild cases, you won't need a lot of countersteer and may not need to add throttle.  

yeah, this is a 143.5" wheelbase with an overall length around 19.5'

rslifkin said:

In the Jeep when I've gotten major lift throttle oversteer on dirt, carefully feeding in just a little bit of throttle sometimes helps, as it gets a little bit of rearward weight transfer and gets engine braking load off the rear tires.  In more mild cases, you won't need a lot of countersteer and may not need to add throttle.  

This.  You said that the car started oversteering due to you lifting off the gas, so weight transfer goes to front, rear tires lose weight and therefore traction, and steps out.  To reverse this a little gas to add back the weight to the rear wheels works.  If you were oversteering b/c of too much gas the reverse would be true.  Of course, countersteering and all that too.  

In reply to bcp2011 :

that works when there's traction on the driven wheels. When the driven wheels have already broken traction, adding throttle is only going to keep them loose longer in my experience. 

Remember, this is a rwd only vehicle, not AWD/FWD. So the wheels that would give you the weight transfer have done lost their E36 M3. 

Go find a empty parking lot when it's snowy or icy and practice. You'll learn how to decelerate and steer out of it.  

I went around in a Corvair once.  All bets are off when they get loose.  

In reply to Kramer :

been there, done that. Hell, we've had this thing for over 12 years now and there hasn't been a winter I don't find an empty parking lot to try and make the wife sick. USUALLY the front pushes hard and is coaxed into oversteer with lots of throttle. IT's just too long and too heavy for lift OS to be very common. I *THINK* the only reason it happened yesterday was the fronts were on dry pavement with grip while the rears had found the slick spot I'd already found with the fronts and lifted for. 

In reply to bobzilla :

Applying a little throttle will still help.  More than a little will keep the rear end sliding, but a little bit will cancel out the engine braking effect and lead to slightly more weight on the rear tires and less drivetrain-induced load on them, so you'll have an easier time bringing the rear end back in line smoothly.  Worst case, on a really slick surface, just shove it in neutral to un-load the drivetrain and give the rear tires less work to do.  

Basically, if you do something and it induces sudden oversteer, the first step should be to un-do the last thing you did.  

In reply to GameboyRMH :

What the instructors told us was to basically loosen your grip on the wheel and let the wheels go where they want. Steering should recenter pretty quick and snap the vehicle out of the oversteer (provided your alignment isn't total trash.) From there you can pretty quickly add additional inputs to get back on course. It could be a bit violent but the vehicle came back under control quickly. The idea was to train us not to input too much countersteer as big corrections in a big vehicle is a recipe for trouble.

I don't have much experience with drift cars (I know they're meant to be unstable though), this was more for up-armored vehicles and some of the thin skinned stuff we might find ourselves in overseas.

I try giving it some gas only if staying off the gas doesn't seem to be helping - mostly in my Samurai which has tractor-like suspension, a far-forward weight bias, and a tiny wheelbase.

bobzilla said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

that works when there's traction on the driven wheels. When the driven wheels have already broken traction, adding throttle is only going to keep them loose longer in my experience. 

Remember, this is a rwd only vehicle, not AWD/FWD. So the wheels that would give you the weight transfer have done lost their E36 M3. 

I understand it's a RWD vehicle, and my comment was for a RWD vehicle, but the same concept applies.  Your tires have four traction patches and if the rear ones lose traction because of lift off oversteer, as opposed to power oversteer, then you should try to unwind the action that led to the oversteer situation in the first place, which is lifting off the throttle.  I'm not saying just mash the pedal, but feeding a little bit of throttle helps to regain traction.  

In reply to rslifkin :

Agree with everything.  The point on engine braking is a great point that I did not think about.  Thanks!  

John Welsh said:

bobzilla said:

...but not necessarily practical on city streets. 

I have witnessed you being very unpractical in this same round about once before.  

I'm pretty sure I was the one driving at the time?  I don't reckon I'll forget that kids face for a while 

I agree with avoiding big inputs in a large vehicle with a long wheelbase - you don't want it to pendulum on you.  When it snaps back, it SNAPS!  I looped an extended cab short bed truck once learning this lesson, I've never been in something that spun so fast.

I used to instruct at an ice racing school in Canada. When the car suddenly starts sliding, my mantra is “unwind the wheel.” Of course, that goes with “look where you want to go” and “feather the throttle.”

“Unwind the wheel” works no matter how/why you’re sliding. Whether dealing with oversteer or understeer, the first thing you need to do is remove some steering angle.

In an understeer situation, unwinding the wheel lets the front tires grip a little more. In an oversteer situation, unwinding the wheel widens the arc that the rear is trying to make. And if you need to go ahead and countersteer, you’re already moving the wheel (and shifting mass) in the right direction. Makes the correction less snappy so you can catch it more naturally with less chance of overcorrecting/fish-tailing. 

^^^

It also gives you a split second to partially stabilize the car so you can decide what to do with the throttle. 

If oversteer is due to trailing throttle, you can feed in a little more power to shift the weight back. If oversteer is due to excessive power spinning up the rear tires, you can ease off a bit to let them hook back up.

Anyway, it’s good to try to develop the instinct that when the car is sliding you instinctively unwind the wheel

In reply to LanEvo :

unwinding I learned with my 89 9C1. That carried overwell with the C4 which could be very unforgiving to hamfisted driving. And the C10 loves slideways driving. The Sierra.... not so much. I think her bulk and size just make it harder. 

I know a lot of guys put tape on the steering wheel to look cool, but old school racers would actually get off the gas, let go of the steering wheel and catch it at center.