New ILX is in at work...

ShadowSix wrote: In reply to bravenrace: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-honda-civic-first-drive-review With the latest Civic, Honda has gambled that moving away from sportiness and towards quiet comfort will suit its buyers. Honda hasn’t hedged its bets into the boring realm of the Toyota Corolla, but it’s certainly an unadventurous effort. Aside from being quieter and more efficient, the new Civic doesn’t represent improvement as we define it. The Civic lacks the passion, soul, and entertaining driving dynamics of its predecessor. Mainstream buyers may not care, but enthusiasts surely will. I've never driven in one, and I feel like calling it a POS is a bit of hyperbole, but it does not sound like a car I would want to own, and I love my GF's 2010 Civic, the seats don't even bother me.

Depends on how you define POS. To me something with no soul, passion or fun is the definition of POS.

dculberson wrote:

bravenrace wrote: The new one is just a refreshed old one, not that much different, which is why it gets panned. They didn't improve it, and maybe even went backwards, but a POS? No, not a POS.

The 2012 switched from double-a-arm to torsion bar rear suspension. Not a POS but also a move away from things the Civic has had since the beginning.

That I didn't know. I'm not happy, it's going to make it harder to get the car to handle, but 99% of their market would rather have the extra trunk space and lower price than the better handling of the double wishbones.

bravenrace wrote:

Javelin wrote: The really unfortunate part is that the new Civic is such a giant POS that even if Acura can work their magic this car will *still* suck.

Please explain. I've been commuting in an '07 Civic LX for 5 years now and have no idea what you are talking about. It's not a standout car, but POS? Please. It's very competitive with other cars in it's class. It has bad seats, but other than that it's a fine commuter car that isn't that expensive, has never broken anything (this car), gets an easy 38mpg on our commute of combined city and highway driving, and holds it's value really well. So please explain where you get POS from?

Easy there hoss, the 07 Civic is a great car. It's the newly redesigned 2012 that's a POS.

bravenrace wrote: The new one is just a refreshed old one, not that much different, which is why it gets panned. They didn't improve it, and maybe even went backwards, but a POS? No, not a POS.

They didn't just go backwards, they went way, way backwards. Not just for the enthusiasts, but for the mainstream. There's a reason Honda moved updates up for the 2013's already man. Again, I have a friend with a 2010 (or 2011, can never remember) and it's a stellar. It's high quality, comfortable, efficient, and even a little fun to drive (4-door auto gas miser one even!). Coworker bought a 2012 that's already been back to the dealer twice. I've ridden in it and it's louder, has a worse ride, and feels super cheap inside compared to my friend's 10/11.

dculberson wrote:

bravenrace wrote: The new one is just a refreshed old one, not that much different, which is why it gets panned. They didn't improve it, and maybe even went backwards, but a POS? No, not a POS.

The 2012 switched from double-a-arm to torsion bar rear suspension. Not a POS but also a move away from things the Civic has had since the beginning.

I understand that, but still, no POS, at least according to my definition. But that's all it is, a difference in definition I guess.

bravenrace wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: The new small Acura car.... It's a Civic wrapped in leather and offered as a hybrid for about $10k more than a civic because it has teh Acura badges on it instead.

do you ever say anything positive?

I don't think so. Maybe if we are talking about a real POS 15 year old Hyundai, but never about a Honda.

15 year old Hyundais WERE POS's. There's no denying that.

The CSX/EL and now the ILX ARE rebadge Civics. The CSX/EL were literally different grille's and badges but everything else was the same. The ILX at least doesn't look as hideous as the new civic.

honda is playing the "GM of the 80's/90's" game where they are playing it safe, rebadging multiple cars to bump sales but are not putting their best foor forward and are NOT putting the quality into them they used to.

I keep hoping they are going to pull their head from that dark hole they've stuck it in. But seeing what they keep pumping out, I do not know how much longer I can hold out.

At least the Koreans are building good looking, good performing long lasting cars and Ford is getting there as well.

Javelin wrote:

bravenrace wrote: The new one is just a refreshed old one, not that much different, which is why it gets panned. They didn't improve it, and maybe even went backwards, but a POS? No, not a POS.

They didn't just go backwards, they went way, way backwards. Not just for the enthusiasts, but for the mainstream. There's a reason Honda moved updates up for the 2013's already man. Again, I have a friend with a 2010 (or 2011, can never remember) and it's a stellar. It's high quality, comfortable, efficient, and even a little fun to drive (4-door auto gas miser one even!). Coworker bought a 2012 that's already been back to the dealer twice. I've ridden in it and it's louder, has a worse ride, and feels super cheap inside compared to my friend's 10/11.

Funny, C& D measured it as being quieter than the previous version, with improved interior materials, and said it rode like a larger car.
Two times back to the dealer may be unexpected for a Honda, but is hardly a reason to call it a POS. What did it go back for? And you are using this one car to call the entire model line a POS? I actually expect more objectivity out of you than that.

bravenrace wrote:

dculberson wrote:

bravenrace wrote: The new one is just a refreshed old one, not that much different, which is why it gets panned. They didn't improve it, and maybe even went backwards, but a POS? No, not a POS.

The 2012 switched from double-a-arm to torsion bar rear suspension. Not a POS but also a move away from things the Civic has had since the beginning.

I understand that, but still, no POS, at least according to my definition. But that's all it is, a difference in definition I guess.

Drive your 2007 to a Honda dealer, drive the same 2012, and then report on whether or not you think it's a POS.

I've been in both cars, they are worlds apart. I stand by statement that the 2012 is a POS.

Bobzilla wrote:

bravenrace wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: The new small Acura car.... It's a Civic wrapped in leather and offered as a hybrid for about $10k more than a civic because it has teh Acura badges on it instead.

do you ever say anything positive?

I don't think so. Maybe if we are talking about a real POS 15 year old Hyundai, but never about a Honda.

15 year old Hyundais WERE POS's. There's no denying that. The CSX/EL and now the ILX ARE rebadge Civics. The CSX/EL were literally different grille's and badges but everything else was the same. The ILX at least doesn't look as hideous as the new civic. honda is playing the "GM of the 80's/90's" game where they are playing it safe, rebadging multiple cars to bump sales but are not putting their best foor forward and are NOT putting the quality into them they used to. I keep hoping they are going to pull their head from that dark hole they've stuck it in. But seeing what they keep pumping out, I do not know how much longer I can hold out. At least the Koreans are building good looking, good performing long lasting cars and Ford is getting there as well.

Says the guy who hasn't even seen the new ILX yet.

In reply to Javelin:

It's not mine. It's my car pool partner's car.

In reply to bravenrace:

Yes, I am basing it off of one car, it's brand friggin new! I don't care what you thought you read in C&D (because I'm 90% sure they even called it pretty much a POS), it was definitely louder inside, the ride (from the back seat) was far worse (hello new crappy suspension), and the materials were very obviously much lower cost than the 10/11 version.

IIRC, the coworkers 12 went back once for a recall or TSB and once for something in the interior breaking.

Don't take it just from me though, there's plenty of disparaging remarks about the 12 from many, many sources including very strongly biased Honda fans. Honda themselves has even already announced changes coming for 2013 to try and fix some of the issues.

Read:

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/08/2012-honda-civic-lx-scores-too-low-for-consumer-reports-to-recommend.html

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/12/honda-ceo-takes-ultimate-responsibility-for-civics-problems/

http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1060317_2012-honda-civic-recalled-for-fuel-system-issue

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/05/review-2012-honda-civic-ex/

"It’s hard to see how the 2012 car could have inspired any of this passion. It’s a little roomier, and its fuel economy is the best yet for a run-of-the-mill Civic (if not quite best-in-class). But the design is clunky, the materials are cut-rate, and the driving experience is so dreadfully dull that even a Toyota Prius is a blast in comparison. Over the past few years Honda has repeatedly claimed to have remembered what made it great, and to be returning to those roots."

dculberson wrote:

bravenrace wrote: The new one is just a refreshed old one, not that much different, which is why it gets panned. They didn't improve it, and maybe even went backwards, but a POS? No, not a POS.

The 2012 switched from double-a-arm to torsion bar rear suspension. Not a POS but also a move away from things the Civic has had since the beginning.

Thread jack... You mean like a Civic from 1985? civic rear susp

In reply to noddaz:

LOL.

Javelin wrote: Read: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/08/2012-honda-civic-lx-scores-too-low-for-consumer-reports-to-recommend.html http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011/12/honda-ceo-takes-ultimate-responsibility-for-civics-problems/ http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1060317_2012-honda-civic-recalled-for-fuel-system-issue http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/05/review-2012-honda-civic-ex/ "It’s hard to see how the 2012 car could have inspired any of this passion. It’s a little roomier, and its fuel economy is the best yet for a run-of-the-mill Civic (if not quite best-in-class). But the design is clunky, the materials are cut-rate, and the driving experience is so dreadfully dull that even a Toyota Prius is a blast in comparison. Over the past few years Honda has repeatedly claimed to have remembered what made it great, and to be returning to those roots."

Car and Driver actually said what I said in those words, so there was no misinterpretation on my part. Maybe YOU should read it. I did read all of those links, long before you posted them, and can't find a one that calls it a POS. But whatever. This isn't really worth debating.

In reply to bravenrace:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-ford-focus-se-vs-2012-honda-civic-ex-comparison-test-2012-honda-civic-ex-page-2

"In a class where a six-speed automatic is quickly becoming the norm, the Civic returns with its old five-speed auto, retuned for efficiency. Honda used to advance technology through novel solutions, not stand idly by as others push the engineering envelope. (The company still hasn’t adopted direct fuel injection.)

"In this car, passing on the highway often calls for a downshift into third gear as the Civic searches for power. Editor-at-large John Phillips noted, “Did the transmission go into neutral? The engine is roaring, but I’m not really accelerating.”"

"The Focus feels taut; the Civic feels a little limp. The Honda’s steering is also disappointing—slower than before and devoid of feel."

This generation Civic was the first to get a "not recommended" by Consumer Reports. You know we all depend on Consumer Reports for our car data.

[/SARCASM]

Honestly, I was entirely unimpressed by the last-gen Civic as an enthusiast car. I DDed an '09 Si for three years and wasn't too sad to see it go. All the expensive insurance and premium gas of a "sports car" with none of the actual fun. It might've held a corner decently but it was boring doing it.

Max_Archer wrote: Honestly, I was entirely unimpressed by the last-gen Civic as an enthusiast car. I DDed an '09 Si for three years and wasn't too sad to see it go. All the expensive insurance and premium gas of a "sports car" with none of the actual fun. It might've held a corner decently but it was boring doing it.

Yeah, when looking for a car in '09 I was sure I would go with Civic Si Sedan or a TSX. Totally ended up in a 350Z. The Hondas just didn't seem that fun, in retrospect I should probably have checked out the Fit.

EDIT: But I still think the '06-'11 Civics are great cars for people not looking for something sporty.

"In this car, passing on the highway often calls for a downshift into third gear as the Civic searches for power. Editor-at-large John Phillips noted, “Did the transmission go into neutral? The engine is roaring, but I’m not really accelerating.”"

Everything is slow to the big car magazine guys. What does the Civic do 0-60 in? High 8s? Sports car times from my youth.

Otto Maddox wrote: "In this car, passing on the highway often calls for a downshift into third gear as the Civic searches for power. Editor-at-large John Phillips noted, “Did the transmission go into neutral? The engine is roaring, but I’m not really accelerating.”" Everything is slow to the big car magazine guys. What does the Civic do 0-60 in? High 8s? Sports car times from my youth.

SO TRUE! I read a road test in one of the big mags (don't remember what car it was) that said the car was almost dangerously slow, checked the stats and it did 0-60 in 10 seconds! The year I was born a new Corvette did 0-60 in 9.2!

Otto Maddox wrote: "In this car, passing on the highway often calls for a downshift into third gear as the Civic searches for power. Editor-at-large John Phillips noted, “Did the transmission go into neutral? The engine is roaring, but I’m not really accelerating.”" Everything is slow to the big car magazine guys. What does the Civic do 0-60 in? High 8s? Sports car times from my youth.

0-60 was in the 9's IIRC, but that's not what that comment was about. That was addressing the clunky reprogramming of the carry-over 5-speed auto. I have experienced this as well. It "hang-shifts" for lack of a better term. It also hesitates a lot, makes ultra-conservative gear selections, and shifts slower than molasses. I'm talking about a normal car response here, not compared to sports car or anything.

Friend's 10/11 shifts much cleaner and crisper with less hesitation and a quicker response. If you rode in the two cars back-to-back blindfolded, you'd guess the 12 was a 90's Hyundai and the 10/11 to be the actual modern Honda.

If 0-60 in 10s is dangerously slow, you don't want to be around my Vanagon or Land Rover. They'll probably kill you with sheer glacial speed.

The Acura EL was just a Civic sedan with the Si engine and a different nose. Very GM - but you couldn't get that engine in that body any other way. So that made it okay. I have no idea what the prices were like, I never paid much attention.

ShadowSix wrote: Does this mean the TSX is gone?

Yes it does. Acura felt that the TSX has gotten too large and similar in size to the TL. So in order to differentiate itself, this car has been slotted into the TSX's spot. Even though this is based on the Civic platform, its going to be bigger than the Civic. Meaning longer wheelbase and stance. Probably closer to the first gen TSX in size.

On another note, Acura has confirmed it will no longer be a luxury brand but a Premium brand. So what does this mean? It will no longer be chasing Mercedes, Audi and BMW. Instead it's now just the Japanese version of Buick. That's kind of strange they've decided that because I've always viewed them as the Japanese Buick.

Meh. A Civic with extra yuppieness due to an 'A' badge. Yea, not for me. Not a fan of the look of the new Civic either...this is not an improvement. I'm a Debbie Downer on this car, apparently