Newbie racetrack tire selection for HPDE

As the title suggests I am setting up my e46 330i zhp as a dedicated track car for HPDE. I don't drive the car on the street anymore so street comfort is not a concern. I have studied the GRM tire guide over and over but I feel like that guide is better for experienced racers and less for intermediate drivers looking to get better.

I am in the solo run group now and have been doing sessions once a week for a few hours. My current street tires are used up at this point and I am looking for suggestions on a new 245/40R17 tire to run. My current tires are discontinued PIRELLI P ZERO NERO GT XL that do not have very much grip and I was not a fan of them on the track. 

My dilemma is do I get 200tw tires that are super gripy like Hankook RS4's or Kumho Ecsta V730 vs street tires like a TOYO  PROXES SPORT (UTQG: 240 AA A) or FIRESTONE  FIREHAWK INDY 500. Also the street tires are far less expensive and I found a really, really good deal on the Toyo's. 

My goal is to learn more and be a better driver so I am not concerned with speed at the moment. I just want seat time and the ability to learn how to get a slow car to go fast. 

I would look at one of the endurance 200TW tires that are on the GRM tire test. Those tests do give you a great guide to 2 things I thought as a person in your shoes a couple years ago. 1. Will the tires last? 2. How do they respond to temperature changes. I'm in the great plains so it's a crap shoot on what the weather will be like. Last weekend it was mid 80s and if it was this weekend, it looks like it'll be in the 50s. 

I've run the RE-71Rs in the past and felt they were rock solid in that purpose that you are looking for. Lasted me all season on a lighter car and let me confidently build speed and focus less on the tire and more about picking up my lines. 

I would also look at the continental ECFs as well. They are in the same category with very lovable characteristics. 

Great advice from bmw88rider.

I'm a big fan of the Hankook R-S4s.  I've been using them for almost a decade a this point for HPDE and Champcar racing.  They hold up really well, but are relatively old tech so they're a solid 1.5ish seconds a lap slower than some of them like the RE-71Rs and other time trial heros.  The tradeoff is  they're a lot longer lasting and can deal with staying on a (garaged) car over the winter better. 

The Ecsta 730s are a great choice as well.  I wasn't as big of a fan of the Proxies, but I know they changed their formula since I've last been on em?   I dunno.

This is a lot like going into a shoe store, saying "I want to start doing some trail running."  There's going to be 30 shoes that will do the job, the hard & long part is figuring out which ones fit best for your feet and local terrain :)

Run the RS4's and enjoy them for an entire season or two. They are a wonderful learners tire, they speak to you long before the grip gives up. You could use them for awhile and get another set of something else down the line and then have them as backup. They're priced pretty well also compared to others. 

I knew what I was going to say and then went back and reread this

I am in the solo run group now and have been doing sessions once a week for a few hours. My current street tires are used up at this point and I am looking for suggestions

So you know what your street tires felt like.  If you're ok with that then maybe the Toyo is going to be ok.  I was originally going to say that even HDPE you are using the car much harder than normal street driving, and the cornering will amplify the mediocrity of street tires.  It's kind of like golf, where is you are going to go through the time and money commitment to spend a day to go do it, you don't want the 1970's clubs that you found for $1 at a garage sale.  You don't need bleeding edge tech, but something good makes the experience better.  Tires are the same way.  If I'm going to commit to running an HDPE, I would use the good 200TW.

Great advise from everyone. I think you confirmed what I have been leaning towards. Have the right tool for the job. 

FWIW, "super grippy" is not the adjective most people would use for RS4s.  People buy them because they're durable and will last the length of a budget endurance race without needing to be changed, not because they're fast or particularly rewarding to drive on.

For HPDE/practice/lapping, I'm a fan of the NT01.  Yes, they're old technology and yes, there are faster tires out there.  The NT01 is consistent and reliable, will last a long time, doesn't suffer from heat cycling, and it's got huge tread blocks so it doesn't chunk easily.  The only real drawback to it is that it's not a great rain choice.

The only thing you should do differently as a newbie is stay away from sub-200TW tires. Hankook RS4s or Continental ECFs would be good choices.

I love the Falken RT615's. Older tech, but they are consistent, give the same feel beginning to end and last forever. When you overdrive them I always felt they came back quicker, giving you a little leeway in learning the car and track. 

Rs4.  There is a reason that over half the field at a champcar race are on them.  (Many many wins in champcar on rs4)

They ARE a fast tire.  Just not the absolute fastest. ECF is maybe a bit faster.  The CRS are a couple seconds a lap faster and about the same as the re71rs.  The CRS and re71rs will NOT last as long.  Probably about 1/3 the life of the rs4.

The rs4 last furreva!

bobzilla said:

I love the Falken RT615's. Older tech, but they are consistent, give the same feel beginning to end and last forever. When you overdrive them I always felt they came back quicker, giving you a little leeway in learning the car and track. 

Interesting.  I always felt the 615s fell off hard (got greasy) when they got hot and it was a few laps before they came back.

if you're an SCCA member you can get 20% off goodyear tires.  This means that you could also consider the SC3's it's 220tw and lasts pretty long, not a great rain tire but at 20% it's a good bargain.  

Will you be tracking in the wet?  That's a key question.

Given what you have been driving on, a much better version of that sort of tire is the Conti ECS02.  We just tested these...I believe its in the next issue.  They are amazing.  A little quicker than all the Endurance 200s in the dry and unbeatable in the wet.  Even faster than an AD09.

GameboyRMH said:

The only thing you should do differently as a newbie is stay away from sub-200TW tires. 

I'm not sure this guidance makes sense any more, if it ever did.  Modern 200 TW tires are at least as sticky if not stickier than the 100 TW tires of the past, so don't fool yourself that an RS4 or whatever is going to "hide mistakes" any less than an NT01 or RR will.  NASA has all three of these tires in the same "1.6 factor" group in their ST class rules -- they consider them to be close enough to the same speed as to not matter.

But yes, stay away from anything that says "Hoosier" on it, unless you want to spend a LOT of money. :)

ClearWaterMS said:

if you're an SCCA member you can get 20% off goodyear tires.  This means that you could also consider the SC3's it's 220tw and lasts pretty long, not a great rain tire but at 20% it's a good bargain.  

SC3s are great track tires with a good life span. This, RS4, v730, etc would be great picks.

Heck, if you dont plan to run in the rain,NT01s are consistent, heat tolerant and love slip angle. Fun to learn on even though Andy hates them :-)

Andy Hollis said:

Will you be tracking in the wet?  That's a key question.

Given what you have been driving on, a much better version of that sort of tire is the Conti ECS02.  We just tested these...I believe its in the next issue.  They are amazing.  A little quicker than all the Endurance 200s in the dry and unbeatable in the wet.  Even faster than an AD09.

Thank you Andy. Just to confirm you are referencing these? https://www.tirerack.com/tires/continental-extremecontact-sport-02

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

But yes, stay away from anything that says "Hoosier" on it, unless you want to spend a LOT of money. :)

 

Now you tell me.......

jonnyd330 said:

Andy Hollis said:

Will you be tracking in the wet?  That's a key question.

Given what you have been driving on, a much better version of that sort of tire is the Conti ECS02.  We just tested these...I believe its in the next issue.  They are amazing.  A little quicker than all the Endurance 200s in the dry and unbeatable in the wet.  Even faster than an AD09.

Thank you Andy. Just to confirm you are referencing these? https://www.tirerack.com/tires/continental-extremecontact-sport-02

I bought a set based on Andy's recommendation/testing. I won't be using them on the track, but they are very nice street tires. One thing that is surprising is how good the ride quality is for a high performance tires.

Andy Hollis said:

Will you be tracking in the wet?  That's a key question.  They are amazing.  A little quicker than all the Endurance 200s in the dry and unbeatable in the wet.  Even faster than an AD09.

Is it faster than the AD09 in the dry?

In reply to jonnyd330 :

100% get a real track tire at your level. Street tires are fine for the first couple events, but they get greasy quickly as you begin to push. Really you're looking for something that has a good wear rating in the tire test and you can find a good price on in your size. ECF might be a touch faster than a rs4, but for lapping it doesn't really matter. You're just looking for consistency and good price to wear ratio. I don't have too much aliegencee to one tire. If there is a good sale on something I'll give it a try. Once you start doing timed stuff you'll know what you want in a tire better.

J_D said:

Andy Hollis said:

Will you be tracking in the wet?  That's a key question.  They are amazing.  A little quicker than all the Endurance 200s in the dry and unbeatable in the wet.  Even faster than an AD09.

Is it faster than the AD09 in the dry?

Substantially so...for a couple of laps.  AD09 is more consistent.

Olemiss540 said:

Heck, if you dont plan to run in the rain,NT01s are consistent, heat tolerant and love slip angle. Fun to learn on even though Andy hates them :-)

Hate is such a strong word...

I just don't see any value in them any more.  Old tech, easily surpassed in every capacity by more modern tires...and at a variety of price points. 

As was stated in the test story, pretty much the only reason people still run them is familiarity.

wvumtnbkr said:

bobzilla said:

I love the Falken RT615's. Older tech, but they are consistent, give the same feel beginning to end and last forever. When you overdrive them I always felt they came back quicker, giving you a little leeway in learning the car and track. 

Interesting.  I always felt the 615s fell off hard (got greasy) when they got hot and it was a few laps before they came back.

Maybe car weight and power level has something to do with it? I'm not exactly heavy nor powerful. 

If anyone cares I bought some Hankook RS4's and got them installed today. I have a track day on Wednesday and next Friday so I will let you know the outcome. 

Andy Hollis said:

Olemiss540 said:

Heck, if you dont plan to run in the rain,NT01s are consistent, heat tolerant and love slip angle. Fun to learn on even though Andy hates them :-)

Hate is such a strong word...

I just don't see any value in them any more.  Old tech, easily surpassed in every capacity by more modern tires...and at a variety of price points. 

As was stated in the test story, pretty much the only reason people still run them is familiarity.

Availability? Sizing? Would love to run the v730, but nope on size options. Would adore the CRS, but lets talk sticker price.

Major tire manufacturers dont want to make the sizes us track guys run wider than stock on smaller than stock wheels generally, they prioritize fitment for stock (huge) diameter wheels. 

Previous track car runs 275/40/17, which rt660s is the only thing available on tire rack (don't think they were last time I needed a replacement set), and new car runs 335/30/18, which CRS run 500 a tire and are back ordered....

Lastly, can't imagine where the wear rating comes from on an NT01, as i got superb life out of every set I have owned. Consistent to the chords. 

We need a track tire test where 4 or 5 of the top tires are run for 3 or 4 track WEEKENDS. Show us lap times and tread depth on the third weekend (compared to the first) . Now that would close the book. 

Running AR1s now (due to availability), but excited to try the CRS soon to see if they somehow last longer than NT01s while being faster at the same time.

NT01 and RR have catered to the odd ball sized HPDE specials like me for two decades. Can't wait to try their replacements.