Lots of industry rumors right now that Porsche has decided to shutter their LMP1 program. Audi did the same last year, which leaves Toyota as the only manufacturer. Can't have a WEC racing class with a single manufacturer per their own rule set, so the days of LMP1 seem to be very much numbered unless another manufacturer decides to jump into the $200 million playground.
The current crop of P1 cars are a technical tour-de-force. Just amazing. Expensive as hell.
VW Group has won Le Mans every year since 2000 (except for a Peugeot win in 2009): Audi has won 13 times, Porsche has won the last three races, and Bentley won in 2003. The is nothing left for VW to prove (...maybe a Bugatti-branded effort?) so from a business standpoint, there's little ROI now for the millions being dumped into their P1 program.
Maybe somebody could resurrect Level 5's D Sports Racer program to challenge the Toyota P1 car for the overall win. 
From what I understand, Mazda and Joest have joined forces. I don't think they would be satisfied with limiting that partnership to this side of the pond or a lesser class.
In reply to nderwater:
I think it's definitely a business decision. The ROI for their money just isn't there, especially after VWs dieselgate PR fiasco. Audi is moving to Formula E where costs are much lower, and the tech probably is more applicable to actual future road cars. Mercedes announced recently that they're withdrawing from DTM to make the jump to Formula E too. It wouldn't surprise me to hear a similar announcement from Porsche in the next couple of years too, considering their interest in full electric autos. Jaguar is already there.
This is where the electric revolution really takes off in my opinion. When a number of manufacturers ditch costly ICE programs in order to invest heavily in electrification, the novelty of an electric vehicle disappears quickly. We just have to find a way to get more lithium to keep up with demand, or develop better batteries.
Jerry From LA wrote: From what I understand, Mazda and Joest have joined forces. I don't think they would be satisfied with limiting that partnership to this side of the pond or a lesser class.
I'd love to see Mazda go after the highest tier of prototype racing, but I'm not sure a small automaker can spare the estimated $200 million per year to field a competitive LMP1 program. If it doesn't make financial sense for VW, then I think Mazda would really struggle to justify the expense.
Lets not forget all of the issues VW has had lately and all of the money they are paying out for the various scandals. I would think that has to play into this somehow.
Jerry From LA wrote: From what I understand, Mazda and Joest have joined forces. I don't think they would be satisfied with limiting that partnership to this side of the pond or a lesser class.
Except that there are other engine makers who are quite happy running in DP/LMP2. Honda and Nissan come to mind, quickly. And it's not as if Mazda has the kind of money that either of them have for motorsports.
Personally, I bet LMP1 will get much better defined, soon. Or it will just go away. It's kind of surprising that they let VW basically run the show for so long with just one company challenging them once in a while. That was a perfect example of nobody being interested. Just like now.
LMP2 is so much closer to a production car that it both is a lot cheaper to run and more educational to the manufacturer.
But even that pales to the current GT classes. And IMHO, the rules are just about spot on, given the high number of both entries and the kinds of cars competing. I'm sure if Mazda had a NSX or big GT car like Honda and Nissan do, they would quickly go there. But they don't.
And the current rules means they have an engine that would easily fit into LMP2/DP.
STM317 wrote: In reply to nderwater: This is where the electric revolution really takes off in my opinion. When a number of manufacturers ditch costly ICE programs in order to invest heavily in electrification, the novelty of an electric vehicle disappears quickly. We just have to find a way to get more lithium to keep up with demand, or develop better batteries.
With all due respect, nobody it ditching ICEs. But many are planning on not selling ICE ONLY cars.
Which points out that a well done hybrid rule set would probably work fine for the FIA and the ACO. The better battery systems, both for increased capacity and faster charging, make hybrids even more attractive in the future.
STM317 wrote:Jerry From LA wrote: From what I understand, Mazda and Joest have joined forces. I don't think they would be satisfied with limiting that partnership to this side of the pond or a lesser class.I'd love to see Mazda go after the highest tier of prototype racing, but I'm not sure a small automaker can spare the estimated $200 million per year to field a competitive LMP1 program. If it doesn't make financial sense for VW, then I think Mazda would really struggle to justify the expense.
Mazda and Joest's program for 2018 is a DPi program, and is not a Le Mans recognized class as of right now. DPi is on par with LMP2 car performance levels, and there was at least one LMP1 privateer team that ran Le Mans. If Mazda were to build a LMP1 car, they would have no place in North America to race it.
alfadriver wrote:STM317 wrote: In reply to nderwater: This is where the electric revolution really takes off in my opinion. When a number of manufacturers ditch costly ICE programs in order to invest heavily in electrification, the novelty of an electric vehicle disappears quickly. We just have to find a way to get more lithium to keep up with demand, or develop better batteries.With all due respect, nobody it ditching ICEs. But many are planning on not selling ICE ONLY cars. Which points out that a well done hybrid rule set would probably work fine for the FIA and the ACO. The better battery systems, both for increased capacity and faster charging, make hybrids even more attractive in the future.
I was referring to motorsports programs, not necessarily road vehicle programs. Interest in motorsports seems to be declining overall, and as such the OEMs aren't getting the same value out of a bespoke, costly ICE engine program to compete in even more costly racing series. Motorsports can still be a very useful development arena, but the high cost of competing in series with declining interest isn't sustainable. That's why I mentioned the OEMs leaving for lower cost series like Formula E. They get to invest in their future with cutting edge tech that will continue to be used for decades to come, while saving mountains of money. At least for now...
That being said, with Germany, France, portions of Scandinavia and the UK all setting goals to eliminate ICE sales within the next 25 years, it makes sense for all OEMs to begin developing fully electric vehicles if they wish to continue to sell their wares in those markets. I don't really want this to become another thread about the impending doom of an electric vehicle revolution, so sorry if it came off that way. I agree with you that hybrids are probably the best bet for the near term, and if I were to purchase a new vehicle right now, it would probably have both an ICE and a charging port.
Rebellion has had an LMP1 car for a few years now. I imagine they would just run LMP2 if the class dissolves.
racerfink wrote: Mazda and Joest's program for 2018 is a DPi program, and is not a Le Mans recognized class as of right now. DPi is on par with LMP2 car performance levels, and there was at least one LMP1 privateer team that ran Le Mans. If Mazda were to build a LMP1 car, they would have no place in North America to race it.
Looking at the bigger picture, I think it's a great place to ramp up your team effort for something bigger in the future. I don't think these guys get together just for some endurance races in the USA. The current situation reminds me of when Ford cars were no longer competitive at Le Mans(the factory having pulled their factory teams a couple years earlier). Ferrari decided to concentrate on F1 and in walked Matra who dominated the race for a couple of years because their main competitors were mostly Porsche privateers.
wvumtnbkr wrote: Rebellion has had an LMP1 car for a few years now. I imagine they would just run LMP2 if the class dissolves.
Looks like they dropped down to LMP2 this year (16th place finish).
The only privateer LMP1 that I see is ByKolles, and they ran a non-hybrid car that completed 7 full laps last year. If I were the ACO, I wouldn't want to see ByKolles be a moving chicane for Toyota's LMP1 in my premier class.
STM317 wrote: I was referring to motorsports programs, not necessarily road vehicle programs. Interest in motorsports seems to be declining overall, and as such the OEMs aren't getting the same value out of a bespoke, costly ICE engine program to compete in even more costly racing series. Motorsports can still be a very useful development arena, but the high cost of competing in series with declining interest isn't sustainable. That's why I mentioned the OEMs leaving for lower cost series like Formula E. They get to invest in their future with cutting edge tech that will continue to be used for decades to come, while saving mountains of money. At least for now...
Which OEM's have shifted to Formula E? Last I saw that, it was a spec series, so if there was an OEM, it was just one of them.
Vs. the rest of motorsports- the only obvious area where OEM's are going away is LMP1. Even the proposals for F1 have brought OEM's out in pretty high numbers.
So I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
In reply to alfadriver:
Jaguar, Mahindra, and Renault currently field teams. BMW, Audi, and Mercedes will be joining the series in a couple of years. I'm not including small, niche manufacturers like FaradayFuture, Andretti,etc because they'll be bought up by OEMs, or they'll quickly become irrelevant as larger, wealthier OEMs buy in with full factory efforts.
Formula E began as a spec series, but they've gradually opened development of drivetrains. Teams currently use proprietary motors, inverters, cooling systems and gearboxes, but the chassis and battery are still spec. I believe there have been discussions about allowing open development of most of the car beginning in 2018 (when most of the OEMs will be joining).
In reply to STM317:
Do they field teams, or do they make the cars?
Fielding teams is just throwing money to advertise. Making the car is where the technology is. So it really depends on how they approach it.
None the less, it also seems as if you are discounting the recent meetings for F1, the growth of the GT-LeMans racing, and the large number of cars in the global GT series.
(I can say that Formula E racing does not interest me- having to switch cars in the middle of the race kind of defeats the purpose of racing- which car is faster)
I wouldn't put much weight into any of the announcements to go ICE free by 25 years down the road. It makes for good headlines and adds some political capital for the current leaders but very few of these initiatives get active. Look at the Obama CAFE requirements.
For LMP1, It's just too expensive. The $200M a year for limited exposure compared to say F1 or even DTM. With the current situation internally at VW group, I can't same I'm surprised.
I'm with you on the whole car swapping thing, but there's a new battery coming for 2018/19 that has the capacity for running a whole race. Finally. Formula E might get interesting.
In reply to alfadriver:
All of this is easily researchable on the Formula E Wiki so I won't bog this down any more than I have to. But the gist of it is that the chassis is made by Dallara, and the powertrain is other OEMs. It's a lot like Indycar in that regard. With larger investment from real OEMs, they might not have to switch cars mid-race much longer.
Again, I'm not trying to turn this into another ICE vs Electric thread. I'm not a Formula E ambassador, and I'm not trying to say that Formula E will make all other forms of racing obsolete. I was simply saying that OEMs seem to be leaving high-dollar, ICE motorsports series and moving toward cheaper Formula E. VW shut down both Audi and Porsche's LMP1 programs, and their own rally program due to costs and have chosen to pursue Formula E. Mercedes is leaving DTM after this year and making the switch. That's not because ICEs are bad, it's just not worth the high cost for them to compete in relatively unknown series. Formula 1 still has a huge following, so it's worth the investment even from a marketing standpoint (unless you're Honda).
In reply to STM317:
I just don't see either DTM or LMP1 as examples of what ICE racing is doing. Especially when there are counter points of increased OEM's in ICE racing. Just like I really don't see going to Formula E abandoning ICE racing.
That's all.
Good. I hope they do. So many sanctions need to bring cars back into a class where it's the original body and suspension mounting points. No more tube frames. Then we will see who is the best in a REAL car.
In reply to alfadriver:
Leaving a racing series or class does not mean abandoning the ICE entirely, and I think that may be where our disconnect is. OEMs seem to be dumping lousy investments (expensive, low-visibility racing series with minimal carryover to street cars) and simultaneously investing in cheaper series with more applicable tech. That doesn't mean that they're abandoning ICE tech, it just means that in order to justify the financial investment the series must have tech that can easily translate to future product (such as GTE classes or Formula E), or it must get enough attention that it pays off in marketing terms (Formula 1, and NASCAR for now...).
The point of my post was to discuss the likely end of what is the premier sportscar racing class in the world. I'm sorry that it's devolved into a debate over semantics around ICE racing vs Formula E. The sad part for me is that the pointy edge of sports car endurance racing is about to get a lot less pointy.
STM317 wrote:Jerry From LA wrote: From what I understand, Mazda and Joest have joined forces. I don't think they would be satisfied with limiting that partnership to this side of the pond or a lesser class.I'd love to see Mazda go after the highest tier of prototype racing, but I'm not sure a small automaker can spare the estimated $200 million per year to field a competitive LMP1 program. If it doesn't make financial sense for VW, then I think Mazda would really struggle to justify the expense.
I'd honestly rather see them pour that money into MX-5 Cup Car and other driver development programs. They have a hardcore following, as illustrated last night, so they know where the money and interest lies. Their IMSA prototype program should be fun to watch as Joest sorts things out.
In reply to STM317:
I agree. Let's stay on topic.
alfadriver wrote: (I can say that Formula E racing does not interest me- having to switch cars in the middle of the race kind of defeats the purpose of racing- which car is faster)
There's a minimum pitstop time enforced here that the teams are always well ahead of, so no, it hasn't turned into a car-to-car parkour event.
Meanwhile, many other forms of auto racing have pit stops where the speed of the pit crew makes a very meaningful difference in the overall result, and that doesn't bother you...
Edit: Also, you would've been absolutely disgusted at this:
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