Not to hate on NASCAR or anything,

Left turn Clyde.

Knurled wrote: In reply to ncjay: Pushrods work just fine and if they got rid of them, they'd just have to restrict the engines further so who cares?

I always enjoy this one. There have been, approximately, 35 billion LS swaps done, and we speak of them here. I am doing one myself. They have pushrods, last well, and make really good power.

There's been maybe 25 4 cam Ford swaps done, and they were more difficult, and I'm sure ultimately disappointing, although you will never get the blue oval guys to admit it.

I thought this was going to be about how NASCAR has given 36 "franchises" to Cup teams that are guaranteed a starting spot in every race regardless of whether they even make a qualifying lap.. the only team that has been there since NASCAR began wasn't eligible for one, but they can buy one from another team if they fold..

Or the 20 minute countdown in the truck series that assures us that there will be a caution to bundle everyone back up every 20 minutes.. might as well just break it up into sprint races..

Or those stupid digital dashes..

I am a fan of every form of motorsports. I prefer to Land Speed and Drag race. My one friend has a dirt track Stock car. Another friend is a Crew Chief on a Trans-Am type car (can't remember the series}. Another races Motorcycles. Another builds Spec cars. I don't feel any desire to knock them for liking something different then what I like. I just appreciate the effort it takes to compete, the effort the organizers put in to create the events, the effort the track owners put in to deal with continuously encroaching neighbors, etc.. Seams odd to me that a group of "Motorsports" enthusiasts would grumble about any other form of racing that is different from what they like.

I blame NASCAR for one of my driving pet peeves. On a divided highway, I believe it is the fault of NASCAR that some people find it 'exciting' or 'entertaining' to be two wide. People will drive side by side in a battle of cruise controls sometimes for 10-15 minutes. Instead of seeing the giant pack of irrationally angry drivers bottled up behind them, they must think they are at the front of the pack and everyone else is in the draft.

Or, they could just bad drivers with a lack of situational awareness. I prefer to think they are NASCAR fans. Two wide, Two wide, two wide....

In reply to wheels777: No kidding. If I wanted to listen to all-Miata-all-the-time discussion I would have reached out to a Mazda forum.

I am not quite sure where I heard this but a formula one team can spend more money on aero research for a couple of raced than it takes to run a two car nascar team for a season (aa much longer season ). As for the engine technology having an overly complicated rube Goldberg device, which is physically larger, heavier with a net higher COG is not efficient. I'm not interested in the hp/L discussion but the hp/lb and where those pounds are.

When I chat with folks about other forms of racing who are big Nascar fans one of the biggest things that turns them off is the attitude of the fans.

Road course racing, to me, is more (not all) about driver vs track and oval racing is more driver vs driver.

In reply to novaderrik:

Agreed on the qualifying. I like the F1 format much better. If you can get to the front great, if not, too bad.

In reply to PushrodRWD:

A year or so when Carl Haas was setting up the F1 team, he made a comment in an interview about the cost difference between a two-car F1 team and his existing 4-car NASCAR team. I don't remember the exact figures, but the difference wasn't as big as one might expect. He already has the wind-tunnel facility, so that cost is less for him.

The difference between NASCAR or speedway racing and every other form of racing is the fan experience. You can sit in the stand and watch your car on every square inch of the race. It is a spectacle without equal in the racing world. Unless you are watching television coverage there is no way to have that experience in road racing. I have always thought that NASCAR gets the need for happy fans much more than most organizations. Not that any of us are saying anything new. These arguments have been recycled for years.

bmw88rider wrote: All I can say to the "haters" I challenge you to sit at turn 1 and not have a chill go down your spine when they light it up after a restart and charge in to turn 1.

I did, most miserable experience of my life...there was more secondhand menthol smoke in the air than air itself, and the deafening noise every 25 second?

I'm not a hater of nascar it's just not my style. That said, someone here mentioned getting more people into nascar then raking them over to road course. In my experience that's impossible, of the nascar fans I know (uncles,dad, family, ect) think nascar is the only motorsport and can't figure out why I prefer right hand turns go with my left hand turns.

Again it not my cupotea but I do my best not to hate, and it's better we have a Motorsport with a massive following than not.

Aside...anyone been to a nascar race out west? Reason I ask is it seems to me most nascar fans have a red hue to their neck if you know what I mean, but it wasn't until I saw (on tv) Sedona nascar fans and they too look like they were snatched up from the south (cut off jeans, "muscle shirt", cig out face, beer in hand) so my question is, are all nascar fans rednecks even out in California??

I figure I spent seven figures going to NASCAR races over 18 years. You live in the Northeast and go to 8 cup races a year for a few years and it can add up. I don't regret a dime of it. It's a show folks, and they can really entertain when they get it right.

Don't ask what my autocross and track budget was.

Around here, we have "modified stock" cars. Boy are they modified. They started out much the same as Nascar. Take an old coupe and go race. Regardless of what they have become, they are still fun to watch.

To paraphrase Ettore Bugatti, NASCAR puts on the most interesting, best marketed, most competitive and most compelling light truck racing series in the world.

Regarding trying to get speedway racing fans interested in road racing: It seems to me, it would be highly effective for those of us who are experienced road course drivers/racers should do our best to convince some hard-core left-turn fans to come for an on-track ridealong, at 7/10 to 8/10 speed (hard enough to get the tires talking and generate some near race level braking and corning Gees), all the while talking them through the techniques and skills you are using to make the car "do the impossble". And, remember to tell them 'Oh, by the way, road racers use bump drafting, too'. THEN ask them what they think about road racing, and BTW this is something YOU can easily and relatively cheaply get started in.

I started this by saying "not to hate on NASCAR ot anything" so don't try to accuse me of being "the guy that starts the yearly hate on NASCAR" thread. I was pointing out that the sponsor names make the divisions sound like stuff that already exists, or used to.

I don't hate NASCAR, even though I don't really bother with it since '87 or so, when the last bit of "stock" went out of it. I still respect the technology, the engineering, and the amazing people that create and operate the cars. I tend to call it "Formula Full Fender," but it's still racing, and I don't "hate" any racing.

If I'm watching racing, I'll go to the dirt track to see sprint cars every time. If I'm doing it, I have to stick to what I can afford, so I autocross and open track. But I respect it all.

NASCAR is what it is and will never be what it was. I liked the older version of NASCAR but NASCAR 2.0 or at this point 3 or 4.0 is entertaining for what it is.

Wining about what it was or use to be is just getting old in my book.

In reply to WildScotsRacing:

That won't happen though. Instead they will show up to a road race and someone will see that they are wearing a Nascar shirt and have an attitude like in Chiodos' post and talk down to them. I've seen it far too often when I've gone to Lime Rock and Watkins Glen. Somehow racing a little 4cyl economy car gives some people an incredible superiority complex.

I don't care for NASCAR, but I understand it for what it is.

It's a business for providing simple entertainment to simple people.

I am likewise in the entertainment business and I fully understand that there is a vast market of simple people who want to be entertained and can afford to buy tickets, merchandise, etc.

I feel about the same way about all professional sports - entertainment for the masses, as a business venture, with a token nod towards actual competition.

Wall-e wrote: In reply to WildScotsRacing: That won't happen though. Instead they will show up to a road race and someone will see that they are wearing a Nascar shirt and have an attitude like in Chiodos' post and talk down to them. I've seen it far too often when I've gone to Lime Rock and Watkins Glen. Somehow racing a little 4cyl economy car gives some people an incredible superiority complex.

Good points regarding offering ridealongs to strangers, and clearly we road course types need to do a better job with that. However, I was thinking in terms of inviting friends/aquaintences/co-workwers to the experience (especially the NASCAR junkies we already know on a personal level), get them interested, and at the end of the day let them know that you offering an open invitation to anyone THEY know to come with next time. If we all started doing this, interest in OUR primary motorsport can only increase. Just a thought...

EvanR wrote: I don't care for NASCAR, but I understand it for what it is. It's a business for providing simple entertainment to simple people. I am likewise in the entertainment business and I fully understand that there is a vast market of simple people who want to be entertained and can afford to buy tickets, merchandise, etc. I feel about the same way about all professional sports - entertainment for the masses, as a business venture, with a token nod towards actual competition.

Careful, you start thinking of your customers as "simple people" and at some point the condescension is going to bite you in the ass.

The constant struggles of F1 are due to the racers thinking they're not in an entertainment league. It's why Ferrari is paid more than the other teams because they're the franchise player, and why there's more emphasis on noise than on the incredible technology.

Keith Tanner wrote: Careful, you start thinking of your customers as "simple people" and at some point the condescension is going to bite you in the ass.

Fortunately for me, I work in the back of the house, not the front. I'm pretty sure if I told my "customers" (and they are that, in the broad sense) what I actually thought of them, I wouldn't last five minutes at my job.

chiodos wrote:

bmw88rider wrote: All I can say to the "haters" I challenge you to sit at turn 1 and not have a chill go down your spine when they light it up after a restart and charge in to turn 1.

I did, most miserable experience of my life...there was more secondhand menthol smoke in the air than air itself, and the deafening noise every 25 second? [snip] Aside...anyone been to a nascar race out west? Reason I ask is it seems to me most nascar fans have a red hue to their neck if you know what I mean, but it wasn't until I saw (on tv) Sedona nascar fans and they too look like they were snatched up from the south (cut off jeans, "muscle shirt", cig out face, beer in hand) so my question is, are all nascar fans rednecks even out in California??

You went to a NASCAR race and you were surprised it was loud?

To answer your question, I've been to NASCAR races at Sears Point, California Speedway, Dover and Richmond. The Sears Point crowd was a bit less stereotypically redneck, but the crowd at Fontana was really no different than Richmond. Of course, if you know your California demographics, that's no surprise. There's a reason we call the 909 "Fontucky."