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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 11:29 a.m.

We put our brand spanking new 2019 on the dyno a few hours after it arrived here. We know the cars, we know the dyno, we have a good selection of reference charts for comparison. So here's what we have. The 2019 had 300 miles on it at the time of the test, the ND1 had more. All of these tests were done on the same dyno with an operator who's more interested in rigor than in marketing numbers, so they're representative and easy to duplicate.

First, disclaimers and explanations. We're testing on a Dynocom 2000, and one of its characteristics is some waviness in the graph around 5000 rpm. All cars do it. The dyno is set up to give repeatable numbers and runs a sweep test that's pretty similar to a Dynojet. Our shop is at about 4800' and correction factors are in the mid-teens. All of these runs have similar correction factors and checking the status of some of the dyno component readouts, are comparable.

Tests were done in 4th gear, as we've found that's the best gear for testing an ND. 6th is the 1:1 gear but that means wheel/roller speeds of 185 mph and the car will actually start to close the throttle early in both 5th and 6th gears as you get into speeds that the car simply can't attain on the road.

The Great Rev Limiter Controversy. We're talking to Mazda about this, and we'll have more legitimate information soon. The car did indicate a redline of 7500 during the test and it has done so during all of our street driving. The tachometer appears to be offset, but like I said we're looking at it. So let's concentrate on the results without getting hung up on that for now and wait until we have more information. The most important thing is that the car has been behaving completely consistently.

Drum roll...

ND1 vs ND2. It's pretty clear that 1) you'll never notice the difference if you shift below 6000 and 2) the ND2 engine is pretty fun. When driving, it just pulls and pulls until you get to redline while the ND1 gets wheezy at 6000.

We've seen this behavior before. When we installed our BBR cam and valvespring kit, the engine in our 2017 RF got really, really fun. It would just pull and pull. Here's what it did vs the same engine in stock form. The cammed engine has a flash, because it needs a flash to deal with the new cams and the increased redline but the exhaust is the same. Tasty. This was a staff favorite to drive, even if it wasn't as fast as the boosted cars.

And of course, next to the new hotness.

So, while we can't duplicate the effects of the ND2, you don't necessarily need to trade in your old car. We'll keep looking at interchange to see how many of the yummy new parts can be retrofitted.

One thing we've noted while driving that doesn't show on the dyno - tip-in response is improved and the engine map appears to be very well calibrated and polished. It's clear that this was not a rush job.

thatsnowinnebago
thatsnowinnebago GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
8/15/18 12:25 p.m.

Do those BBR cams fit the new motor?

What causes the waves at the end of the ND2 graph? More dyno weirdness or something else? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 12:34 p.m.

I'm sure they'll fit, but they may be a downgrade. The ND2 already has different cams with more lift and duration.

 

I'll ask Jeremy about his ideas on the waviness at the top end. I suspect it is dyno fluctuations, we did not apply any smoothing to those graphs.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 12:46 p.m.

Speaking of the BBR cams, am I correct to assume you're not offering the full BBR kit that includes intake and header? IIRC it's the one they call the BBR 200 kit?

OTOH those cams look like they'd be just the ticket to wake up the motor in my ND1...

Driven5
Driven5 SuperDork
8/15/18 12:49 p.m.

Why does the ND2 graph appear to stop at ~7200rpm?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 12:51 p.m.
BoxheadTim said:

Speaking of the BBR cams, am I correct to assume you're not offering the full BBR kit that includes intake and header? IIRC it's the one they call the BBR 200 kit?

OTOH those cams look like they'd be just the ticket to wake up the motor in my ND1...

We are not offering the header because it is not emissions legal. We decided not to offer the BBR intake after dyno testing. 

The ND1 with those cams is fun fun fun.

Driven5 said:

Why does the ND2 graph appear to stop at ~7200rpm?

The Great Rev Limiter Controversy. We're talking to Mazda about this, and we'll have more legitimate information soon. The car did indicate a redline of 7500 during the test and it has done so during all of our street driving. The tachometer appears to be offset, but like I said we're looking at it. So let's concentrate on the results without getting hung up on that for now and wait until we have more information. The most important thing is that the car has been behaving completely consistently.

Driven5
Driven5 SuperDork
8/15/18 1:00 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Gotcha...I mistook your comment to imply that you didn't experience any of the #rpmgate discrepancies. Thanks for clairifying. The consistency and output itself, is certainly all still very good news.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
8/15/18 1:08 p.m.

Well, if you draw a line through all that waviness up top it appears that power may still be climbing. If there's 300 more rpm of that to be had it may come pretty close to doing at the wheels on your dyno what Mazda says it is at the crank.  Regardless, it's a huge huge upgrade. 

If it weren't for the caveat that people generally don't buy Miatas for their acceleration in the first place, all the attempts to make ND1 owners feel better would seem pretty half-hearted. I can understand not wanting the market for ND1 hop-ups to turn into the market for ND1 trade-ins, but this is the first Miata ever that takes the wind out of acceleration comparisons to minivans and family sedans. I am deeply suspicious that it might crack a 13.9 over a 1/4 mile. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/15/18 1:13 p.m.

Keith I'm guessing the "no BBR header" + "no more engine management" means that going forward FM just isn't going to mess with developing or offering any non-emissions legal parts? 

Jaynen
Jaynen UltraDork
8/15/18 2:22 p.m.
z31maniac said:

Keith I'm guessing the "no BBR header" + "no more engine management" means that going forward FM just isn't going to mess with developing or offering any non-emissions legal parts? 

I believe that they announced that a while back as they also sold through all their non CARB EO approved turbo kits/ecus etc its one of the reasons they are no longer selling ECUs by themselves

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 2:36 p.m.

Correct, we are concentrating on parts that are emissions legal. That's why we've been beefing up our selection of legal products and discontinuing others - especially those that can be considered tampering with emissions controls. Removing a cat is federally illegal, for example, even if you don't have local inspections. Standalone ECUs also delete certain emissions controls, cause inspection failures on cars made in the last two decades and of course can have a massive effect on emissions.

We can still tune the ND ECUs, because you can do that whilst retaining all emissions controls. We're currently working with BBR to see if we can get access to the ND2 ECU, which is a different unit from what was in the ND1.

The cam option isn't an attempt to make ND1 owners feel better, it's a legitimate option for those who already have an ND1 and are considering if they need to buy an ND2 or not.

What the dynos don't show for the cammed engine or the ND2 engine is how much more they feel like a proper sports car engine. No more running out of breath 600 rpm before redline, the car now pulls all the way up. It's much more rewarding, and the ND2 has improved tip-in behavior over the earlier cars.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
8/15/18 4:00 p.m.
Driven5 said:

Why does the ND2 graph appear to stop at ~7200rpm?

Looks like we weren't the only ones. 

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
8/15/18 5:10 p.m.

I think I really want to drive one of these on track.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 5:38 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:
Driven5 said:

Why does the ND2 graph appear to stop at ~7200rpm?

Looks like we weren't the only ones. 

We've done investigation in a few different gears, there's definitely something going on and it's not as variable as I expected. We test in 4th so we avoid the 5th and 6th gear limiters. Talking to powertrain guys at Mazda to get more info. I have a pet theory that would be pretty entertaining if it's true and I have come up with a goofy product I could probably implement tomorrow if that's what's going on.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 6:12 p.m.

And just because, here's our BBR turbo (CARB legal!) versus the ND2 (also CARB legal, I assume).

Pete Gossett
Pete Gossett GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 8:02 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I’d ask for an overlay for the ND2 and LS ND1 but I doubt they’d fit on the same screen/page. 

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 9:10 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

And just because, here's our BBR turbo (CARB legal!) versus the ND2 (also CARB legal, I assume).

So in other words, forget about cams, buy an altitude compensator.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/15/18 11:29 p.m.
Pete Gossett said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I’d ask for an overlay for the ND2 and LS ND1 but I doubt they’d fit on the same screen/page. 

It would just be mean. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/16/18 7:07 a.m.
BoxheadTim said:
Keith Tanner said:

And just because, here's our BBR turbo (CARB legal!) versus the ND2 (also CARB legal, I assume).

So in other words, forget about cams, buy an altitude compensator.

And stock up on transmissions!

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
8/16/18 6:37 p.m.

I think wanting a car that's 'all in' at 5000rpm means yeah, you're not gonna care about the ND2 upgrades. Yeah, that turbo car is obviously gonna be faster,  but what's different in the nd2 is not 'just' that it's got more power, it's that it's got a longer powerband that continues to climb in power right up until the mystery rpm that it forces you to shift at. There's an eagerness to an engine that makes peak power right near the rev limit that a faster turbo car with a flat powerband for the last 2000 rpm is not going to have. Of course, you can build a turbo car to act like that too, or you can make the turbo car fast or loose enough that you're too busy trying not to die to notice the difference between 5000 and 7000 rpm. It just depends on what you value. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/16/18 6:40 p.m.

Yes, that's the justification people often use for slower cars wink I've had two Miatas in my garage at the same time that had almost identical peak power but very different delivery. The peaky naturally aspirated one was huge fun on the track, the one with the big torque plateau was great day to day.

We can't go any higher on the top end on the turbo car, we're at the limit of a few different components. We can drop the midrange torque down if you prefer, that's just a matter of cam tuning. But most people seem to prefer it.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/16/18 6:47 p.m.

In reply to Vigo :

If you buy a car purely on the numbers and the shape of the curve...

But seeing what Keith is typing about how the ND2 drives, there's more to the new car than the power band.  It's considerably more refined and nicer to drive overall.  That's what caught me when I drove my '99 after having a '95- as soon as I started driving the car, the changes were so noticeable, that I got the car right away.  Had nothing to do with the relative peak performance.  Had everything to do with it being a better car.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
8/17/18 2:16 p.m.

If you buy a car purely on the numbers and the shape of the curve...

Unless you really  care about the tilt/telescope wheel that is THE major reason to compare ND1 to ND2. Compare it to anything else, less so. But if not for what you quoted this particular thread would not exist. Certainly there are plenty of other changes to talk about, and it's sort of a shame that the number of people who noticed them at all would be miniscule without the headline act which is the subject of your quote. I'm sure there are LOTS of thankless aspects to powertrain engineering...But i can assure you i would still ask the GT-S trim level to prom even if she was 20hp less pretty, if that helps. cheeky

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/18 12:41 p.m.

More dyno fun! This is running on a bone stock tune as we cannot yet communicate with the 2019 ECU, but it does respond to some breathing modifications.

Ignore anything below 2000 rpm, those are artifacts of the start of the run. And yes, the redline is coming in at 7200 with the tach indicating 7500. We're still researching that.

The axleback is the Flyin' Miata Hush-O-Matic. That's an active exhaust that can bypass the muffler based on throttle position. It's in manual mode, so the bypass is open on this run.

The midpipe is the Flyin' Miata high flow midpipe. No loss in ground clearance and it fits with all bracing.

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/21/18 12:54 p.m.

Those are impressive gains with the stock header. 

Hopefully someone will release a quality header that picks up even more. 

Exhaust + E85 please!

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