ohh poop. ford cancels fiesta rs

Stargazer wrote: Personally, I like the Fusion, but I'm not in the market for a heavy 4 cylinder FWD stripper. I want the V6 AWD model, but Ford refuses to offer it with a manual transmission. So until they do, I'll keep buying foreign cars.

Ok, which company makes a V6 AWD car with a manual??? Not Toyota. Not Honda. Not Nissan. Not even VW. Audi, I think- but I'm not sure.

So you'll discount Ford products since we match market with Toyota and Honda, but since we can't offer an Audi at Ford prices, you'll pass????

Yet, again, for the unrealistic expectations. Thanks.

I'd like to have one, too, but know that we are far better off putting our eggs into baskets where we might actually make money on them.

Sorry, ignornat. But it really, really grates on me when people expect more out of Ford than they do of Honda and Toyota. And are not willing to actually pay for it (might I remind the good reader that ALL of our products in equal markets are cheaper to buy than Toyota and Honda).

I'll match the S2000 with the Miata, especially since the 2000 is going away. Just at the same time we don't own Mazda.

How about we stop buying ALL Hondas since they are dropping the S2000, don't seem to want to replace the NSX, and horror of horrors- took the double A-arm front of the Civic, and replaced it with (GASP) a strut. Or Boycot Toyota since they dropped the MR2 for a second time, and just deliver refrigerators that are pretty bad (the ones I've driven at least).

Just compare us equally.

Eric

I can't compare you equally Eric.

I will buy a Ford the next time I purchase NEW, which will likely be within 24 months because my WIFE like the cars. She doesn't like cars, she likes reliable transportation. She likes her Dodge but when it is paid off she wants a new Mustang.

I won't stop her, I can get certain VWs cheap but still would rather drive the Mustang over a Golf.

John Brown wrote: I can't compare you equally Eric. I will buy a Ford the next time I purchase NEW, which will likely be within 24 months because my WIFE like the cars. She doesn't like cars, she likes reliable transportation. She likes her Dodge but when it is paid off she wants a new Mustang. I won't stop her, I can get certain VWs cheap but still would rather drive the Mustang over a Golf.

I do want to be clear, I'm not telling anyone that they MUST BUY X. Whatever X is.

What I'm saying is that don't discount American cars for irrational reasons when you DON'T discount other cars for the same reasons.

If you don't buy a Ford for "X" reason, then you should not buy a Honda or Toyota for the exact same reason. In this case, it's the super RS version of a small car that very, very few companies actually make (if you look into the actual proposed specs).

That's all I ask.

But, JB, I'm sure you know where to get a PIN, right?

Eric

Yup, I sure do.

alfadriver wrote:

Stargazer wrote: Personally, I like the Fusion, but I'm not in the market for a heavy 4 cylinder FWD stripper. I want the V6 AWD model, but Ford refuses to offer it with a manual transmission. So until they do, I'll keep buying foreign cars.

Ok, which company makes a V6 AWD car with a manual??? Not Toyota. Not Honda. Not Nissan. Not even VW. Audi, I think- but I'm not sure. So you'll discount Ford products since we match market with Toyota and Honda, but since we can't offer an Audi at Ford prices, you'll pass????

I discount Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. equally when shopping for said car. I'm just saying that they could break into another market if they were to offer a "performance" version of the Fusion (which wouldn't be all that difficult IMO). I only said V6 because that's what they happen to use in the Fusion. There's plenty of others that have a sedan/wagon with a decent engine, AWD and manual transmission. BMW, Audi, Mazda, Subaru off the top of my head.

I'm not bashing Ford or judging them unrealistically to the other Mfgs. I'm just saying that they could be competing in the sports sedan market if they were to offer something appealing. The same is to be said for Toyota, Honda etc., but their market is pretty stable and they don't need it as much.

Again - not bashing or judging unfairly - just saying that if they had offered a manual version of the fusion to compete with Subaru and BMW, I would probably buy it. (Again, I'm not saying the same for Toyota or Honda because their market is already defined)

What I'm saying is that don't discount American cars for irrational reasons when you DON'T discount other cars for the same reasons. If you don't buy a Ford for "X" reason, then you should not buy a Honda or Toyota for the exact same reason. In this case, it's the super RS version of a small car that very, very few companies actually make (if you look into the actual proposed specs). That's all I ask.

I don't see how discounting (most) American cars because they no longer offer a sporty sedan with a manual transmission is being irrational? I see transmission type as being pretty high on my list of priorities (as with many other enthusiasts). I would agree with you if nobody else in the world was making such a car, but when there's plenty of foreign companys selling them, it's not a hard choice.

Stargazer wrote:

What I'm saying is that don't discount American cars for irrational reasons when you DON'T discount other cars for the same reasons. If you don't buy a Ford for "X" reason, then you should not buy a Honda or Toyota for the exact same reason. In this case, it's the super RS version of a small car that very, very few companies actually make (if you look into the actual proposed specs). That's all I ask.

I don't see how discounting (most) American cars because they no longer offer a sporty sedan with a manual transmission is being irrational? I see transmission type as being pretty high on my list of priorities (as with many other enthusiasts). I would agree with you if nobody else in the world was making such a car, but when there's plenty of foreign companys selling them, it's not a hard choice.

To clarify, you're looking for AWD also...which limits your choices even further from the "sporty" "sedan" and "manual" requirements. Also, you still haven't responded to my comment above about the manual trans on the CTS and Sky/Solstice. The way you worded it, it seemed like you were saying they don't have a manual trans, but this is definitely not the case. In both chassis, you can get a manual trans all the way from the base engine up to the super duper awesome engine.

Bryce

Nashco wrote:

Stargazer wrote:

What I'm saying is that don't discount American cars for irrational reasons when you DON'T discount other cars for the same reasons. If you don't buy a Ford for "X" reason, then you should not buy a Honda or Toyota for the exact same reason. In this case, it's the super RS version of a small car that very, very few companies actually make (if you look into the actual proposed specs). That's all I ask.

I don't see how discounting (most) American cars because they no longer offer a sporty sedan with a manual transmission is being irrational? I see transmission type as being pretty high on my list of priorities (as with many other enthusiasts). I would agree with you if nobody else in the world was making such a car, but when there's plenty of foreign companys selling them, it's not a hard choice.

To clarify, you're looking for AWD also...which limits your choices even further from the "sporty" "sedan" and "manual" requirements. Also, you still haven't responded to my comment above about the manual trans on the CTS and Sky/Solstice. The way you worded it, it seemed like you were saying they don't have a manual trans, but this is definitely not the case. In both chassis, you can get a manual trans all the way from the base engine up to the super duper awesome engine. Bryce

Sorry - I see now that my wording was confusing. I mentioned those cars as examples of American cars where we actually got a good platform, engine, and manual transmission. I was saying it as a positive thing for GM. The point was - why can't we offer more like those?

I'm not only looking for an AWD sedan, I only used that because the Fusion comes as an AWD version.

I don't know if it makes sense to compare new bmw's to new fords.

In this example of awd, v6-ish, manual trans, doing a new vehicle search on edmonds the only cars that come up in the 25-35,000 range are cts, a4, lancer evo, imprezza and legacy. And when you go 15-25 grand, it's just the two subbies. So in reallity subaru has that market cornered, if someone were to make a competitor they had best make one better than them and they've been at it for a while and are a small volume manufacturer so it doesn't make a lot of business sense.

I agree with alfadriver, ford is making good comparable cars. I actually really like the look of the new fusion. I think it's awesome that it's a better hybrid than camry. I think the accord and camry are some of the ugliest, blandests things i've seen.

My main issue is the focus. I know the focus goes for a lot more in europe than it does here but how does mazda, which ford owned, use the newer focus chasis and still manage to sell it here when ford said they couldn't?

If ford had been selling the same falcon from oz, here, I'd own a 9 year old ford falcon. With a manual trans and 4 doors and rear wheel drive. Instead I bought a A6 2.7T Quattro, V6, Bi-turbo with the 6 speed manual. The only other cars on my list was a BMW 3 or 5. (Or maybe a MB C-Class but I was never able to find one with a manual transmission.) The CTS was/is still a little pricey (not by much now). I even sent ford an email telling them I want OZ Ford rwd products. (Not so much the Utes though). If I wanted a good fwd car for the 30 miles to work, it would be a focus. Or a Diesel VW. I wouldnt even consider a Toyota or Honda. Just not my cup of tea, unless you're talking old school rwd 'yotas. I like them. I dont consider myself a die hard fan of any brand, but I do like good engineering.

PaulY wrote: I don't know if it makes sense to compare new bmw's to new fords.

The Countour SVT competed with the 3 series. We all know the demise of the CSVT, but I know a number of people who started out looking at 3's and ended up with a new CSVT. I agree that it's probably not a money maker, but they could throw us a bone.

alfadriver wrote: Sorry, ignornat. But it really, really grates on me when people expect more out of Ford than they do of Honda and Toyota. And are not willing to actually pay for it (might I remind the good reader that ALL of our products in equal markets are cheaper to buy than Toyota and Honda). Just compare us equally. Eric

I thought ford was crap until I bought a ranger and I found out it was a half bad truck. It did rattle down the road at the end but it had 156k(pretty trouble free) miles on it.

Just chill and be thankful that people have expectations of the company. There are no expectations on Chrysler right now. It is a sign that Ford is more viable. It's a good thing.

I soooo wish we got the mondeo. That was and is a wicked car. I would be really interested in seeing a new mondeo comapred to a fusion. This thing is though, in europe the mondeo sells for way more money(in conversion) than the fusion does here. Also i wonder how the mondeo compares to the current 3 series.

Really, the way to do it is the make something like a Lincoln compete with bmw like cadillac is doing. The price difference in the ford and bmw is just waaaaaay to large now to even compare. Given the choice I would waaay rather have a cts than a 5. I just hope gm green lights the alpha platform to make a 3 series fighter in cadillac and chevy trim. It would also keep the solstice going.

RossD wrote: If ford had been selling the same falcon from oz, here, I'd own a 9 year old ford falcon.

I'd love a Falcon too, but the problem is that we're 2 of about 10,000 people who would have bought one. GM announced they were bringing the GTO to the US, people got really excited and then when it got here they bought something like 25% of what GM had forcasted they would. Then GM brought the 4 door Holden, everyone got really excited, and bought 25% of what GM forecast. They've cut production of the G8 by 98% this year so they can clear out last year's models. Granted, car sales in general have been crappy this year, but the G8 has been one of the worst performers saleswise. It's a shame, but it's true.

I'd much rather see Ford concentrate on getting back to profitability and regaining market share instead of working to sell a performance variant of every car they offer. After they're a healthy company again, I'll start complaining that we can't get a 250hp Ka.

Bob

alfadriver wrote: Something to think about- does the fact that the Fit doesn't come in an R package or the Scions- mean that Toyota and Honda have problems? Some of the scrutiny that Ford and GM get when Honda and Toyota don't do the EXACT SAME THING just is sad. We need to concentrate on making the best cars that MORE people will buy, not just make the enthusiest market happy. It's not like anyone on this board would seriously pay a premium for a new car. Eric

I don't really see the Fit or any of the Scions as having the same potential as the Fiesta. The Fit gets an "A" for an economy car, but a B- as an enthusiast car. And that latter grade might be too kind.

Potential or not, if it's not going to make them money they aren't going to bother, no one else is, so why should they? If the car has potential than it's a suspention swap and a turbo away from ridiculousness. I read on top gear's website, Mountune, (apparently the euro branch or Roush), has already done up a hot Fiesta that should almost be as good as the st or rs, which ever it was. So if you really, really want a performance fiesta, do it yourself, ford has laid the ground work down in making a capable chasis, which is the most important part. Buy the base and go to town making what it into what they know it can be. I even heard the that Mountune kit is warranty approved. What more do you want?

alfadriver wrote: And the Fiesta WILL be here. In full Euro trim. Which, according to all the reports I've read, will be far better than the Honda and Toyota of equal offerings. But I'm sure you will all still find things to complain about, even when we will be better in all offerings.

I'll believe that when I see it. I'm sure they'll find a way to ruin/Americanize it before it hits our shores. (Average) Americans can't grasp the concept of a true sports suspension.

Stargazer wrote:

What I'm saying is that don't discount American cars for irrational reasons when you DON'T discount other cars for the same reasons. If you don't buy a Ford for "X" reason, then you should not buy a Honda or Toyota for the exact same reason. In this case, it's the super RS version of a small car that very, very few companies actually make (if you look into the actual proposed specs). That's all I ask.

I don't see how discounting (most) American cars because they no longer offer a sporty sedan with a manual transmission is being irrational? I see transmission type as being pretty high on my list of priorities (as with many other enthusiasts). I would agree with you if nobody else in the world was making such a car, but when there's plenty of foreign companys selling them, it's not a hard choice.

Do you do the same for the Japanese?? That's ALL I'm asking. Does Toyota as a nameplate get taken off the table since there's no Camry that's AWD, V6, and manual? Or does Honda? Or are you just going with Subaru? We are talking a $20-30k car here, not a $40k Audi.

My biggest gripe is that people discount Ford and GM, but allow Toyota and Honda to get away with either the same issues, or worse. I don't think there's a 3.5l Camry with AWD even in auto form. You say that thier market is "defined"- our market is the same one- high quality car to the masses. So, in essense, you ARE giving Honda and Toyota a free pass on this, you don't discount them for the evil transgressions you say we are doing. That is BS in my book, and I'm not afraid of calling hypocacy when I see it.

BTW, comparing the Contour SVT to a BMW is quite the compliment. Especially when you consider the cost. Or better yet, quality.

Again, all I ask is a fair shake. How you judge OUR product line up should be the same for our main competitors- Toyota and Honda. I can't really pretend to be BMW, or even Subaru for that matter. We are not them, and realistically, BMW and Subaru don't comepte with us- we compete with GM, Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree, Nissan. Huge masses of cars, must be super high quality to compete.

Gamby- it's not really a sports suspension. It just handles well. If you are expecting a rock hard suspension that doesn't lean at all, the you'd be pretty dissappointed when you head over to Europe. But at least you discount the product before it even hit the shores...

Eric

I agree with you on that but can you answer me how Mazda can sell the 3 based on a newer focus chassis than ford but ford says they can't? Seriously, how much longer are they going to drag that chassis out before we get a new one?

alfadriver wrote: Gamby- it's not really a sports suspension. It just handles well. If you are expecting a rock hard suspension that doesn't lean at all, the you'd be pretty dissappointed when you head over to Europe. But at least you discount the product before it even hit the shores...

I'm not discounting the car, I'm discounting Ford's marketing. They're in no place to take a risk--even though I don't consider the Fiesta RS to be "a risk".

Look--the Fiesta RS that was featured on Top Gear looked like a fantastic car. I just don't see that car making it to our shores like that, no way, no how. BTW--I didn't see much lean/squat/dive out of that car's suspension, either.

I saw a light, revvy 120hp twincam 4-cyl with great handling characteristics and great looks. This is a winner to me. It would be a massive hit with enthusiasts, but I understand that they have to build one for mainstream America as well.

The first thing that any "world" model gets when it comes here is a softer suspension. That's not me being a hater or a naysayer--that's just how it works.

In the midst of the gas crunch, when Ford was getting rid of their full-size SUV's, they said that they had some European models that would easily be saleable in the US market--they just needed tweak them for the US market. Conventional wisdom says that means "wider seats/softer suspension".

I'm pulling for the Big 3. I'm not wishing them failure. I'd like to think that this country is able to produce a truly great car.

PaulY wrote: I agree with you on that but can you answer me how Mazda can sell the 3 based on a newer focus chassis than ford but ford says they can't? Seriously, how much longer are they going to drag that chassis out before we get a new one?

Or the Volvo.

John Brown wrote:

PaulY wrote: I agree with you on that but can you answer me how Mazda can sell the 3 based on a newer focus chassis than ford but ford says they can't? Seriously, how much longer are they going to drag that chassis out before we get a new one?

Or the Volvo.

IIRC, Ford didn't want to use the updated chassis because it was more expensive. They had a price target they felt they needed to hit, they didn't feel that they could sell the volume they needed with a more expensive car. You/We don't have to agree with it, but we can at least understand the goal.

Bryce

Volvo sells at a higher price point so that's understandable. But Mazda? Those cars are in direct competition, I've driven an 03 base auto focus and an 08 base auto 3 and the Mazda was worlds better.

PaulY wrote: Volvo sells at a higher price point so that's understandable. But Mazda? Those cars are in direct competition, I've driven an 03 base auto focus and an 08 base auto 3 and the Mazda was worlds better.

Just because they sell for a similar amount doesn't mean they cost the same amount to build...

Off topic to a point.

I think the "feel" can be opinion based. Too many people say the Cobalt was E36 M3e but the new Saturn was super awesome. The bias is amazing.