Ok, so I’m checking out another turbo Miata. This one a 1.6 with a really nicely installed turbo. Lots of other goodies. 2560 turbo like my 1.8 car. Seems really strong. 7 psi I think. Rx7 turboII diff.
What I wonder about is that I know ultimately less power for a given mod than a 1.8, but what happens if the motor comes apart? It’s been what, 25 years since they made the 1.6? Of course you could swap the 1.8 in easy enough, but how much of the turbo would? Obviously needs a new exhaust manifold, what about down pipe? Any other differences?
has a link ecu, but I’m not sure who’s turbo setup it is. Maybe FM?
If it has a Link, it's probably either an FM turbo or an AVO. Could be a GReddy. Pictures will tell the tale.
There are still lots of parts available for the 1.6. A lot of parts are common like rods and bearings. And at that power/boost level, you'd have to try pretty hard to blow it up. You could also drop in another stock engine.
You'd need to change out the manifold and probably the downpipe, but it's possible to make the latter work if you're a clever kind of guy. My personal car is set up like this. Keep in mind that if you can't find a 1.8 manifold with the same basic geometry (AVO or GReddy) you may end up changing anything that attaches to the turbo: intake, outlet, downpipe, manifold.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
While reading about oil pump breakage problems on high power BPs, I was wondering: Would a B6 built to the same power level have the same issues? Shorter crank should be stiffer, so it would rattle the pump less.
Or am I overthinking things again.
If you consider replacing the damper with a piece of billet steel to be a good test, the answer is yes. Do that to either a BP or a B6 with a turbo and you'll never have to change the oil again.
The length isn't that different and it's the offset power pulses that create the vibrations. Best solution is a better damper.
I drove the 93 yesterday. It’s really fun. The link computer is much less confusing to me than megasquirt. Changing something like is really straightforward. It has koni and ground control springs. Stiff but not terribly. No Miata I’ve ridden in rides as nicely though as the 96 I have with tokiko and FM springs and rear shock mounts. I’m torn. These two cars really serve two different purposes. My 96 is fast and nicely handling but fairly civilized, almost more on the GT side of the spectrum, and the 93 is much more rowdy. Also super solid. My 96 has a few spots that I can tell have the potential for rust to pop through. Nothing yet but I feel like it’s lurking. Kept out of the road salt and if I oil it up in the rockers it will probably be fine for years.
The 96 also feels a little stronger. Makes sense as it’s a 1.8. More noticeable lag in the 1.6.
Hawk brake pads in the 96, carbotech in the 93. Much firmer peddle in the 93. May just need a bleed in the 96. Limited slip from a turboII in the 93, open in the 96. AC in the 96, as well as PS, no cruise. Manual rack and no AC in the 93, but does have cruise. For some reason it doesn’t appear to work with the link ecu. Also the 93 has 131,000 Miles vs my 96 has 83000 on it now.
I may may be able to straight across trade. Not sure if that’s my best option. I may be getting distracted by no rust...
Keith Tanner said:
If you consider replacing the damper with a piece of billet steel to be a good test, the answer is yes. Do that to either a BP or a B6 with a turbo and you'll never have to change the oil again.
The length isn't that different and it's the offset power pulses that create the vibrations. Best solution is a better damper.
I am SO stealing that euphemism.
I'm aware of the importance of crank dampers. I just got to thinkin', because Audi fives have oil pump issues at high RPM too, and the Audi solution was dry sump, but the Dahlback solution was short stroke cranks, because the cranks were stiffer and you're throwing an acre of boost into the engine anyway so it doesn't matter if it loses a little displacement if it means you are allowed even more boost and RPM.
The crank damper removal was just a good way to illustrate the relative strength of the two setups. Unfortunately, the NC and ND guys are all planning to learn the same thing the NA and NB guys did the hard way. "These guys have the word engineering in their company name, they obviously know what they're doing and you guys are just trying to bring them down..."
That's intereresting about the Audi cranks. Were the short stroke units billet cranks, rewelded stock units or a retrofit from a different OE application?
Joey, the Link was basically a custom-coded computer for the Miata. It might have had weak hardware compared to newer stuff, but it was optimized down to the last bit. The programmer actually worked in assembly language. So it's a great ECU as long as you want to do exactly what it's coded to do and nothing more. The biggest problem they have today is that the hardware is aging, so we're seeing more cracked solder joints and blown components. There's no reason cruise shouldn't work, that'll be something unrelated to the ECU, like a missing check valve.
The Koni/GC setup should have good potential for ride, just get the ride height correct and maybe put on a set of the FM rear mounts to get your travel. 96 brakes should feel good but I have found the 1.6 cars can have astoundingly firm pedals when they're in top shape. I have no idea why. The 96 probably just needs slider pin lube and a good bleed.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The nice thing is that NCs and NDs don't have crank keyways, so crank harmonics should make everything under the crank bolt loosen up. Gut feeling says they will find their ignition timing and cam timing shifting before they kill anything. (Silly design, putting the crank trigger on a non-keyed part...)
Re: Audis. I never found out specifically what Dahlback was doing, BUT: The common turbo Audis were 86.4mm stroke for 2.2l displacement. Italian models had a 77.4 stroke crank to get the engines under 2 liters, for tax reasons. I've seen eBay pictures of these cranks, and they appear to be castings, not forgings. Crank failure is pretty much unheard of in the Audi world, though, even past 1000hp.
I was wondering if the short stroke cranks were also constructed differently.
joey48442 said:
I drove the 93 yesterday. It’s really fun. The link computer is much less confusing to me than megasquirt. Changing something like is really straightforward. It has koni and ground control springs. Stiff but not terribly. No Miata I’ve ridden in rides as nicely though as the 96 I have with tokiko and FM springs and rear shock mounts. I’m torn. These two cars really serve two different purposes. My 96 is fast and nicely handling but fairly civilized, almost more on the GT side of the spectrum, and the 93 is much more rowdy. Also super solid. My 96 has a few spots that I can tell have the potential for rust to pop through. Nothing yet but I feel like it’s lurking. Kept out of the road salt and if I oil it up in the rockers it will probably be fine for years.
The 96 also feels a little stronger. Makes sense as it’s a 1.8. More noticeable lag in the 1.6.
Hawk brake pads in the 96, carbotech in the 93. Much firmer peddle in the 93. May just need a bleed in the 96. Limited slip from a turboII in the 93, open in the 96. AC in the 96, as well as PS, no cruise. Manual rack and no AC in the 93, but does have cruise. For some reason it doesn’t appear to work with the link ecu. Also the 93 has 131,000 Miles vs my 96 has 83000 on it now.
I may may be able to straight across trade. Not sure if that’s my best option. I may be getting distracted by no rust...
Not trying to talk you into or out of anything, but what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this swap? You can generally find LSDs for under 500 all-in, and only take a few hours to install, so that's not really a concern... Is your car otherwise rusty and this one is perfectly mint? Are you just looking for a new & different set of problems to solve instead of the ones you already know? etc.
My read on it from across the screen. You have a car you know, with no currently-known rust issues, better suspension/handling, more power, creature comforts such as AC and PS and 50k less miles. You're going to trade that even up for a car that isn't set up as nicely as your suspension wise, more mileage and less power, but also doesn't have any currently-known rust issues?
Sounds like you want to pay a tuner $500 to put your car on a dyno so you don't have to deal with tuning your MS if that's a problem and then $500 for a torsen and you'd be futher ahead.
WonkoTheSane said:
joey48442 said:
I drove the 93 yesterday. It’s really fun. The link computer is much less confusing to me than megasquirt. Changing something like is really straightforward. It has koni and ground control springs. Stiff but not terribly. No Miata I’ve ridden in rides as nicely though as the 96 I have with tokiko and FM springs and rear shock mounts. I’m torn. These two cars really serve two different purposes. My 96 is fast and nicely handling but fairly civilized, almost more on the GT side of the spectrum, and the 93 is much more rowdy. Also super solid. My 96 has a few spots that I can tell have the potential for rust to pop through. Nothing yet but I feel like it’s lurking. Kept out of the road salt and if I oil it up in the rockers it will probably be fine for years.
The 96 also feels a little stronger. Makes sense as it’s a 1.8. More noticeable lag in the 1.6.
Hawk brake pads in the 96, carbotech in the 93. Much firmer peddle in the 93. May just need a bleed in the 96. Limited slip from a turboII in the 93, open in the 96. AC in the 96, as well as PS, no cruise. Manual rack and no AC in the 93, but does have cruise. For some reason it doesn’t appear to work with the link ecu. Also the 93 has 131,000 Miles vs my 96 has 83000 on it now.
I may may be able to straight across trade. Not sure if that’s my best option. I may be getting distracted by no rust...
Not trying to talk you into or out of anything, but what exactly are you trying to accomplish with this swap? You can generally find LSDs for under 500 all-in, and only take a few hours to install, so that's not really a concern... Is your car otherwise rusty and this one is perfectly mint? Are you just looking for a new & different set of problems to solve instead of the ones you already know? etc.
My read on it from across the screen. You have a car you know, with no currently-known rust issues, better suspension/handling, more power, creature comforts such as AC and PS and 50k less miles. You're going to trade that even up for a car that isn't set up as nicely as your suspension wise, more mileage and less power, but also doesn't have any currently-known rust issues?
Sounds like you want to pay a tuner $500 to put your car on a dyno so you don't have to deal with tuning your MS if that's a problem and then $500 for a torsen and you'd be futher ahead.
I know! It’s frustrating. So, the rust in the 96 is a bit more extensive than I thought. Hardly terrible but with the amount of nice Miatas around, it bugs me. I don’t think the 93 is a real viable trade. He wants money on my end, and I’m not willing to pay to make the trade. Probably for the better. I do have the very solid white Miata that would make a really nice home for this drivetrain, and I could turn the 96 into a nice non turbo cruiser and sell it off. 
FYI, I don't know exactly what that kit is. A bitsa, as the Brits would say. Definitely not an AVO or an FM-based kit, and the GReddy didn't come with Garrett turbos as far as I recall. It may be an old BEGi manifold (sold by FM waaay long ago) but only the manifold. The blow-off valve needs an air filter, it's sucking in unfiltered air at idle and cruise.
Keith Tanner said:
FYI, I don't know exactly what that kit is. A bitsa, as the Brits would say. Definitely not an AVO or an FM-based kit, and the GReddy didn't come with Garrett turbos as far as I recall. It may be an old BEGi manifold (sold by FM waaay long ago) but only the manifold. The blow-off valve needs an air filter, it's sucking in unfiltered air at idle and cruise.
They did not. It was some garbage TD04
There were two turbo sizes for the GReddy, but I think they were both Mitsus.
Keith Tanner said:
There were two turbo sizes for the GReddy, but I think they were both Mitsus.
Could be. Regardless those things are ancient compared to the current offerings.
Given that the GReddy hasn't been sold for years, it's understandable that it's not state of the art 
Neither is the Link ECU on this car. When trying to figure out what's on a 28 year old modified car, it's fairly typical to find "ancient" parts.
Keith Tanner said:
Given that the GReddy hasn't been sold for years, it's understandable that it's not state of the art Neither is the Link ECU on this car. When trying to figure out what's on a 28 year old modified car, it's fairly typical to find "ancient" parts.
Truth! And it’s amazing how fun that “ancient” car is!
Keith Tanner said:
Given that the GReddy hasn't been sold for years, it's understandable that it's not state of the art Neither is the Link ECU on this car. When trying to figure out what's on a 28 year old modified car, it's fairly typical to find "ancient" parts.
Agreed, but you can also find state of the art EFR kits as well. If the platform is good, it lives on haha
Obviously it lives on, that's what I do for a living! But we're talking about a specific vehicle here, not a generalized "but there is newer stuff out there!" discussion about whether buying a used vehicle is worthwhile.
Does anyone actually make an EFR kit for the 1.6?
joey48442 said:
I know! It’s frustrating. So, the rust in the 96 is a bit more extensive than I thought. Hardly terrible but with the amount of nice Miatas around, it bugs me. I don’t think the 93 is a real viable trade. He wants money on my end, and I’m not willing to pay to make the trade. Probably for the better. I do have the very solid white Miata that would make a really nice home for this drivetrain, and I could turn the 96 into a nice non turbo cruiser and sell it off.
Not to pooh-pooh bodywork as "it's easy, anyone can do it" because I know that just isn't exactly true, but if you have a modicum of talent and that's the extent of the rust, with a welder you can tackle that for a weekend and ~$300. I know, because I've done it before. The prospect of doing it is a lot scarier than the actual job, if you know what I mean. Start here: https://raybuck.com/panels/mazda/1989-2005-mazda-miata/ (no affiliation, it's just who I used to get the NB quarter panels I replaced and I was happy with them for the price). Grab a spot drill cutter from Harbor Freight.
Then hit up Eastwood to get some weld through primer and chassis rust preventor/sealant. Finally, stop by your friendly neighborhood parts store & paint shop for some primer and rock guard.
Or, that's probably less than 1k to pay someone else to solve. You'll spend more than either the time and money above or the money to the left to swap chassis by the time you count in all of the fluids and bits and bobs you'll do "while you're in there."
Just trying to offer solutions :) I'm happy to post some pics of what I did on that NB if you want a step-by-step to cutting out the cancer.
WonkoTheSane said:
joey48442 said:
I know! It’s frustrating. So, the rust in the 96 is a bit more extensive than I thought. Hardly terrible but with the amount of nice Miatas around, it bugs me. I don’t think the 93 is a real viable trade. He wants money on my end, and I’m not willing to pay to make the trade. Probably for the better. I do have the very solid white Miata that would make a really nice home for this drivetrain, and I could turn the 96 into a nice non turbo cruiser and sell it off.
Not to pooh-pooh bodywork as "it's easy, anyone can do it" because I know that just isn't exactly true, but if you have a modicum of talent and that's the extent of the rust, with a welder you can tackle that for a weekend and ~$300. I know, because I've done it before. The prospect of doing it is a lot scarier than the actual job, if you know what I mean. Start here: https://raybuck.com/panels/mazda/1989-2005-mazda-miata/ (no affiliation, it's just who I used to get the NB quarter panels I replaced and I was happy with them for the price). Grab a spot drill cutter from Harbor Freight.
Then hit up Eastwood to get some weld through primer and chassis rust preventor/sealant. Finally, stop by your friendly neighborhood parts store & paint shop for some primer and rock guard.
Or, that's probably less than 1k to pay someone else to solve. You'll spend more than either the time and money above or the money to the left to swap chassis by the time you count in all of the fluids and bits and bobs you'll do "while you're in there."
Just trying to offer solutions :) I'm happy to post some pics of what I did on that NB if you want a step-by-step to cutting out the cancer.
i totally get that! But from what I’ve found, is if the rust is there, it’s everywhere else as well. Certainly not terminal, but when I have cleaner body’s already, it makes it hard to keep a rusty one and sell a solid one...
