On the hunt for a fun daily driver. ND2 vs Civic Si

Hello everyone! I recently cancelled and wussed out on my BRZ deposit because of the recent issues (both with warranty treatment and the engine itself). While I'd normally be patient and just wait a few years I'm sort of bored of driving cheapo beaters that I get for under 1000$ and would like to drive something engaging and daily liveable to put on the miles (i don't need a luxury car though). This leaves me with two other candidates which I've done vague research on but never really anything comprehensive. All I know about miatas is that the ND1's used to have grenade transmissions and the ND2 supposedly fixed it but then I found out there have been 5 revisions of the transmission (they are now on V5). What I am mostly interested in is a cheap platform that can withstand and handle the abuse of autocross/track, even if they may not necessarily see that. I've always driven cars that were just generally rock solid (NA Miata, DC2 Integra, E36, etc) that could take a beating and I'm looking for something new that replicates that level of stress free fun. I know next to nothing about the new Civic Si as it just came out but I think a lot of the parts are carry over from the old Si and they seem to be fine (Autocross, World Challenge, etc) but I could have missed anything.

I'm posting here because I think this forum would have a better handle on this kind of stuff rather than forums/reddit due to the audience.

EDIT: Just want to add a bit more information since the cars are obviously way different. The car doesn't actually need any practical need as I have multiple cars, so it's mostly for personal usage. I've liked both FWD and RWD cars in the past but I just want mechnically "simple" (hard these days) and reliable cars that can be tossed around. I want the least bit of driving aids and luxury comforts (I don't care about heated seats, etc).

An ND is a good choice but I'll make comment to not overlook the NC.  An NC is very good at being a DD and it's athletic too.  They seem to be a relative value sweet spot right now as shoppers gravitate to NBs and NDs.  Try one on and see how it works for you. 

There are some fun Korean variants out there too.  

The one thing that keeps me from giving a full endorsement to the ND2 RF is the seats. I've had mine about a year now and I absolutely love it, but I find the seats uncomfortable if I'm in the car for more than about an hour. No problem for commuting but if I'm taking a road trip I drive my truck. Guess it all depends on how you will use the car and how your body is built. I have friends that find the ND seats perfectly comfortable. 

John Welsh said:

An ND is a good choice but I'll make comment to not overlook the NC.  An NC is very good at being a DD and it's athletic too.  They seem to be a relative value sweet spot right now as shoppers gravitate to NBs and NDs.  Try one on and see how it works for you. 

There are some fun Korean variants out there too.  

Good idea! I'll have to take a look. What is the typical market price for an NC these days?

Not interested in Hyundai/Kia stuff. Just never really liked them (and I've driven them!)

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

The one thing that keeps me from giving a full endorsement to the ND2 RF is the seats. I've had mine about a year now and I absolutely love it, but I find the seats uncomfortable if I'm in the car for more than about an hour. No problem for commuting but if I'm taking a road trip I drive my truck. Guess it all depends on how you will use the car and how your body is built. I have friends that find the ND seats perfectly comfortable. 

How has the transmission been? That's my main concern!

Transmission is great. Since the ND2's came out, transmissions issues have been uncommon. The ones I know about tend to be boosted cars under hard use.  I've had mine on the track 7-8 times and have had no issues. I do drive it with some mechanical empathy, as I would in any street car. 

Those two choices seem pretty different.  FWD sedan vs. RWD convertible, bespoke sports car chassis.  Drive them and see which you like better.  Oh, the internet will find something to howl about with any car.  How many thousands of 86's (both first and second gen) have been sold and how many (unmodded) have had engine failures?  

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Transmission is great. Since the ND2's came out, transmissions issues have been uncommon. The ones I know about tend to be boosted cars under hard use.  I've had mine on the track 7-8 times and have had no issues. I do drive it with some mechanical empathy, as I would in any street car. 

Yeah that' s what I'm trying to gauge here. Various Miata forums and redditers have seemingly random failures not even being autocrossed/tracked so that spooks me a bit. I know forums aren't the best data point but I don't really know. I hear the V5 (which came out in 2018-2019) are doing well so far.

parker said:

Those two choices seem pretty different.  FWD sedan vs. RWD convertible, bespoke sports car chassis.  Drive them and see which you like better.  Oh, the internet will find something to howl about with any car.  How many thousands of 86's (both first and second gen) have been sold and how many (unmodded) have had engine failures?  

Yeah, they are a bit different. The car doesn't actually need any practical need as I have multiple cars, so it's mostly for personal usage. I've liked both FWD and RWD cars in the past but I just want mechnically "simple" (hard these days) and reliable cars that can be tossed around. I want the least bit of driving aids and luxury comforts (I don't care about heated seats, etc).

I've sat in an ND2 but haven't had the opportunity to drive it yet. Civic Si's seem to be sold instantly before I can get my hands to test drive one. Tough times.

I love my ND2 after a year of daily driving. The build quality is great and the interior is elegant and smartly designed for the driver. The infotainment control knob is weird at first but incredibly intuitive once you get used to it. It does a great job of keeping your eyes and fingers away from a screen, as opposed to the awful trend lately of hiding everything inside a screen of menus. Obviously it drives and sounds great right out of the box. I feel no need to modify it. And I just love looking at it! But it would be difficult to live with if it was the only car in your household, since the trunk is extremely small. I find the GT leather seats pretty comfortable. I was actually thinking about 9th gen Civic Si (with the K2.4) before I made up my mind about the Miata. I decided I wanted to own a true, dedicated sports car with RWD and naturally aspirated engine before those go extinct and while I'm still young, so I went for it. I'm only at 10k miles, 1 track day, and several autocrosses on street tires but the trans is fine. I follow the issue pretty closely and it seems unless you get a very early ND1, the trans issue is overblown, especially for daily/uncompetitive enthusiast usage. I'm averaging 34 mpg on premium. 

maschinenbau said:

I love my ND2 after a year of daily driving. The build quality is great and the interior is elegant and smartly designed for the driver. The infotainment control knob is weird at first but incredibly intuitive once you get used to it. It does a great job of keeping your eyes and fingers away from a screen, as opposed to the awful trend lately of hiding everything inside a screen of menus. Obviously it drives and sounds great right out of the box. I feel no need to modify it. And I just love looking at it! But it would be difficult to live with if it was the only car in your household, since the trunk is extremely small. I find the GT leather seats pretty comfortable. I was actually thinking about 9th gen Civic Si (with the K2.4) before I made up my mind about the Miata. I decided I wanted to own a true, dedicated sports car with RWD and naturally aspirated engine before those go extinct and while I'm still young, so I went for it. I'm only at 10k miles, 1 track day, and several autocrosses on street tires but the trans is fine. I follow the issue pretty closely and it seems unless you get a very early ND1, the trans issue is overblown, especially for daily/uncompetitive enthusiast usage. I'm averaging 34 mpg on premium. 

Yeah I'm feeling a bit reassured between the Dual Mass Flywheel Change from the ND1 to ND2 and the 5 versions of transmissions. I also noticed there's a place that actually builds ND transmissions so I figure if the transmission grenades itself outside of the warranty, I'll have owned the car long enough to pay for a new built transmission. Starting to lean towards the Miata as we speak because the more I think about it, I really do want the purest sports car I can find. I don't have worries about practicality because my other vehicle(s) are pretty practical.

If you want a reliable, pure sports car, buy the Miata. I bought mine in May 1993 and still have it! 

just as an FYI, the ND2 got a heavier Dual mass flywheel and unique throttle tuning to help prevent the trans issues, they still happen from time to time, mostly in STR autox cars from what i've seen.... but the transmissions have also greatly come down in cost.. now they're under $2k.. not free.. but something not totally unreasonable.

And here I am waiting for my '23 BRZ and I ordered the ducktail spoiler on Friday and I'm about to order wheels as well. Have already talked to an old BMW guy that owns a detail shop here in OKC to the car and new wheels for ceramic coating and window tint. 

Honestly I would have kept the brz order. As long as you can make the ergonomics work and don't specifically want a convertible, it's just a better car than the other two options. Subaru's warranty coverage was never in doubt, and chances are you wouldn't have any problems anyway especially if you end up only ever street driving it and keep it full of good oil.

dps214 said:

Honestly I would have kept the brz order. As long as you can make the ergonomics work and don't specifically want a convertible, it's just a better car than the other two options. Subaru's warranty coverage was never in doubt, and chances are you wouldn't have any problems anyway especially if you end up only ever street driving it and keep it full of good oil.

I had planned on doing a mix of everything. I had a JCW Mini that I drove for 4 years on the street aggressively, autocross and on track with zero issues before I sold it to cash in on pandemic pricing. I want a vehicle that I can feel comfortable beating the hell out of if I feel like it.

frenchyd said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Im sorry if my suggestion isn't to your liking.  But I would buy something cheap  easily repair. Simple and fun. 
   A Ford model A  1929-30. 
  A  MGTC.  1947-49  if you want something a bit more civilized MGTD 1950-53

  Why those?    Well they are unbelievably fun, decently reliable, certainly attention getting. 
   Life is short. If you follow the herd  you'll never know the joy of spontaneity.  

Thanks!

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I had planned on doing a mix of everything. I had a JCW Mini that I drove for 4 years on the street aggressively, autocross and on track with zero issues before I sold it to cash in on pandemic pricing. I want a vehicle that I can feel comfortable beating the hell out of if I feel like it.

Yep, my 2015 FR-S does all of that.  I've put over 100,000 miles on it.  Tracked a couple of times in 95F heat, autocrossed and agressively street driven.  Gasp!  I don't even have an aftermarket oil cooler and it didn't blow up!  Of course, the engine is stock.  No "tunes" or forced induction.  I've done nothing but fluid changes, track pads when tracking and one sparkplug change.  The sparkplug change wasn't even that bad.

Another ND2 RF owner, I just rolled over 10k on the way to instruct at Pocono yesterday.  I think this is the perfect car if you're not too worried about cargo capacity (I can fit a normal weekly 3-bag grocery run in the trunk, but leave it at home for a Costco run!).

I can't speak to long term reliability as I've only made it through one oil change. 

Out of the box, it is brilliant.  I need to get around to doing an alignment, and I'd like to get a set of sways from FM, but they're not really necessary for normal twisty street use.

The one mod that is totally worth it is the top control module that lets the top turn into a one-touch up/down.  As a long-time Miata guy, it kinda breaks the immersion when you have to hold down the button for a whole 12 seconds to put the top up or down.  I know, I know, first world problems, but it really does make a difference in that undefinable "fun" factor.

I'm also on the "leery of Subaru engines" side.. I've helped two people replace engines in the first gen BRZ/FRS, both with a lot less track time than I would have expected them to blow up in.  There's at least 6 of them in my immediate circle that have lost engines with normal track use.  Of course, it's just a Subaru engine doing Subaru things on track, but still... I wouldn't buy one myself.

Has the ND2 flywheel weight been published? I know it's assumed to be heavier because a DMF must be so, but I've never seen numbers.

FWIW, I would have stuck with the BRZ, despite its styling (*), if I needed a tintop. Veloster N or GTI would have been other choices.

But my emotional health requires a good-handling roadster, so I have a Miata. 35000 miles so far on my '16 without trans issues, although the TOB was replaced under warranty.

* If I followed a BRZ forum, I'd know that the BRZ is unreliable. But I spend a lot of time on miata.net, so instead  I know the ND is unreliable. 

I had a MINI, and knew that was unreliable, per the forum, but it failed in a way that no one else experienced. 

Camaro or Mustang?

BillKeksz said:

Has the ND2 flywheel weight been published? I know it's assumed to be heavier because a DMF must be so, but I've never seen numbers.

FWIW, I would have stuck with the BRZ, despite its styling (*), if I needed a tintop. Veloster N or GTI would have been other choices.

But my emotional health requires a good-handling roadster, so I have a Miata. 35000 miles so far on my '16 without trans issues, although the TOB was replaced under warranty.

* If I followed a BRZ forum, I'd know that the BRZ is unreliable. But I spend a lot of time on miata.net, so instead  I know the ND is unreliable. 

I had a MINI, and knew that was unreliable, per the forum, but it failed in a way that no one else experienced. 

I'm in a fortunate situation where I don't any form of practicality right now because my other vehicle is a Land Rover LR3 (yes yes...I know it's considered unreliable but its been no problem at all for me as a do it all vehicle other than MPGs). The JCW Mini I had was an F56 and honestly, that thing was actually reliable but then again, I wasn't creeping into 100k+ miles but it withstood everything I did perfectly with no CELs/issues of overheating and stuff.

WonkoTheSane said:

Another ND2 RF owner, I just rolled over 10k on the way to instruct at Pocono yesterday.  I think this is the perfect car if you're not too worried about cargo capacity (I can fit a normal weekly 3-bag grocery run in the trunk, but leave it at home for a Costco run!).

I can't speak to long term reliability as I've only made it through one oil change. 

Out of the box, it is brilliant.  I need to get around to doing an alignment, and I'd like to get a set of sways from FM, but they're not really necessary for normal twisty street use.

The one mod that is totally worth it is the top control module that lets the top turn into a one-touch up/down.  As a long-time Miata guy, it kinda breaks the immersion when you have to hold down the button for a whole 12 seconds to put the top up or down.  I know, I know, first world problems, but it really does make a difference in that undefinable "fun" factor.

You were at MPACT?

Anyways, the more I think about it I think I might just spring for the ND2. Seems to have its issues band aided enough and I also see transmission prices have gone down. Thanks for the info/ideas everyone!