Fine I'll be the one to say it. I do care about the environment.
[why do you guys make me feel like that should be in the Minor Confessions thread?]
I've never seen a tesla up close, but I wish them the best. Having US factories and the jobs they create is good. Having a US automobile industry is good.
...and sure, there may be owners who are sanctimonious tools, but you see a fair bit of that with BMW and porsche owners, too
I want Tesla to succeed. I don't care if their drivers are smug or not, they are producing an awesome product.
FranktheTank wrote: All new cars of any type are a waste of materials. At least old iron has paid its carbon debt with usage.
While this makes sense on some level, how are you going to get "old iron" if no one buys new cars??
I agree with you Pheller. They could be the future of the automoble as we know it. Losing money on each one or not.. they make a green running car that is still fun to drive
JoeyM wrote: Fine I'll be the one to say it. I do care about the environment. [why do you guys make me feel like that should be in the Minor Confessions thread?] I've never seen a tesla up close, but I wish them the best. Having US factories and the jobs they create is good. Having a US automobile industry is good. ...and sure, there may be owners who are sanctimonious tools, but you see a fair bit of that with BMW and porsche owners, too
Seriously. It's about a lot more than stinky air. I feel sick every time I see oil-covered birds, read about more vanishing species and whales that have such high levels of crap in their bodies, that they can actually be classified as toxic. I'm all for pushing boundaries to come up with a solution - and not because I'm some sanctimonious Prius driver with millions in the bank and nothing better to do than shoot off my mouth about other people's carbon footprint. berkeley, I own a V8. But I haven't seen a salamander in 30 years, and they used to be plentiful. Amphibians aren't doing well with all the E36 M3 we've pumped into the environment. People don't swim in the rivers and lakes up here anymore - we used to live in them all summer. A friend took her dog to the beach last week, and now it's on antibiotics to deal with the E-coli it ingested. Yes, I care about the environment, passionately and deeply. I'd rather see more turtles, hawks and forests than another god-forsaken development, and I think we need to put more money into developing cleaner energy alternatives.
late-night rant with no real point:
I think the Tesla looks great. But I like the ugly-ish Volt a lot more. Or even the hideous Leaf. Because a tiny number of uber-expensive electric cars does precisely jack for saving the environment, while mass-market electric vehicles in an "everyman" price range actually could (I suppose). Ok, I really hate those cars because they're ugly and not fun to drive. But from the viewpoint of saving the Earth, I like them.
The Tesla strikes me just like the Escalade Hybrid or other hybrid luxury cars that rich people buy to make themselves feel "clean" or to one-up their peers driving that "regular" 7-series, all while using my taxpayer-funded HOV lanes since they can do so since their Hybrid SUV gets 17mpg instead of 15mpg. While my 35mpg e30 or 28mpg WRX have to sit in non-HOV lanes. And then looking down at me for driving my "dirty" non-hybrid WRX, even though it gets 10mpg better than your luxury hybrid does.
And how much does one weigh? 4000lbs? More? Electricity comes from mostly fossil fuels. Would the Tesla get twice the range if it was 1000lbs lighter (less luxury features, etc), and if it was configured to not accelerate as fast (thereby using less electricity)? If the goal is economy, make a light, slowish car with bare-bones features that uses less electricity (and thereby less coal, oil, natural gas, etc...)
The people who drive the Teslas so they can say they're "saving the environment" are the same people living in the 7-bedroom McMansions that burn 5x as much energy annually as my normal-size house does - and that's just talking about all their big floodlights on all night to light up the beautiful facades of the houses. I'm sure there are exceptions that live in wonderful earth-friendly homes as well, but that's not the majority. I know where 3 local Teslas park. In detached garages bigger than my house. Next to large SUVs and/or other non-electric luxury/sportscars.
If people really want to save the environment, drive a tiny electric car that uses a minimal amount of (oil or coal or wind or gas or hydro-sourced) grid power. Or ride a bike. Or public transit. Or just go find a Geo Metro.
Enjoy your quick acceleration, very pretty car, and exclusiveness. That's fine by me. Just like it's fine if you drive a Ferrari that gets 10mpg. But DON'T pretend like the Tesla is saving the Earth. It's not, and Tesla drivers aren't.....
I'll care about Tesla as a company when it releases a $30k car that looks stylinsh and handles well. Then I'll know they're serious about being real pioneers in "saving the Earth."
/rant with no real point 
ransom wrote: If he lived here, he'd be able to specify that his juice come from wind power for a pretty small additional fee. I don't know whether WY has anything like that. Maybe he's just clueless. Something tells me you have no Tesla stock
BS deregulation jargon. The electrons still come from the same place, you're just funding wind turbines and unicorn farts. The electricity you buy is hard-wired. If you pay the extra for wind power on your bill, its not like they custom-lay 475 miles of wire directly to your house, its just that they use it to purchase green electricity somewhere else.
I'm in western PA. The electrons pulsing back and forth through my wiring comes from coal. Period. I hate it. I wish I had unicorn farts.
.... or at least SOME logical way of generating energy on my property.
In reply to curtis73:
Why would it make any difference where my electrons come from, as long as the result is the purchase of that much energy from a cleaner source instead of a dirtier one? Either way, the result is a greater proportion of the total from a better source.
logdog wrote: If I had a Tesla, my plate would read "Signs"
"EDSN RX"
edit: literally 10 seconds after posting this, "Love Song" came on my internet streaming thing..
emodspitfire wrote: So.....do they believe that they only collect electrons from solar panels and wind turbines....(?)
Do they have any nuclear plants in Wyoming? High speed neutrons will make CO2-free electrons too.
If I had a Tesla (which I won't -- blech), and I lived near San Onofre, I'd want my plate to say "NUKULAR" :)
My friend works as an engineer at an electric utility. It is in that company's interest to promote electric car usage, so they started offering free charging in some parking spots at work to anyone with a Plug in car. The workers without electric cars hated those with plug ins so much they basically forced the company to start charging a monthly fee for spots with plugs.
Good job people. Way to alienate early adopters of a technology that will help drive more demand for your product.
< sarcasm>
Of course, we would not want them to be inconvenienced and have to walk another hundred feet.
< /sarcasm>
novaderrik wrote:logdog wrote: If I had a Tesla, my plate would read "Signs""EDSN RX" edit: literally 10 seconds after posting this, "Love Song" came on my internet streaming thing..
LUVSNG would be good too!
as soon as they get a charging station in DC in Hancock MD or Cumberland MD and one in Pittsburgh i will buy one. i spend $12,000.00 a year in fuel making this trip. it is 245 miles it scares me right now because its on the limit and i always stop about half to get something to eat so charging station there would seal the deal for me. i know where there is a 2008 roadster with 3100 miles on it for 50k
Lesley wrote:JoeyM wrote: Fine I'll be the one to say it. I do care about the environment. [why do you guys make me feel like that should be in the Minor Confessions thread?] I've never seen a tesla up close, but I wish them the best. Having US factories and the jobs they create is good. Having a US automobile industry is good. ...and sure, there may be owners who are sanctimonious tools, but you see a fair bit of that with BMW and porsche owners, tooSeriously. It's about a lot more than stinky air. I feel sick every time I see oil-covered birds, read about more vanishing species and whales that have such high levels of crap in their bodies, that they can actually be classified as toxic. I'm all for pushing boundaries to come up with a solution - and not because I'm some sanctimonious Prius driver with millions in the bank and nothing better to do than shoot off my mouth about other people's carbon footprint. berkeley, I own a V8. But I haven't seen a salamander in 30 years, and they used to be plentiful. Amphibians aren't doing well with all the E36 M3 we've pumped into the environment. People don't swim in the rivers and lakes up here anymore - we used to live in them all summer. A friend took her dog to the beach last week, and now it's on antibiotics to deal with the E-coli it ingested. Yes, I care about the environment, passionately and deeply. I'd rather see more turtles, hawks and forests than another god-forsaken development, and I think we need to put more money into developing cleaner energy alternatives.
Rock on Lesley!
In reply to cutter67:
You know that the Roadster can't use the Supercharging stations, right? At least not their super-fast charge.
Not that I wouldn't rock one - there are a couple that I see on a regular basis and it would make a nice commuter for me. Not $70k nice, though, and that seems to be the going rate out here.
ransom wrote: In reply to curtis73: Why would it make any difference where my electrons come from, as long as the result is the purchase of that much energy from a cleaner source instead of a dirtier one? Either way, the result is a greater proportion of the total from a better source.
Good luck trying to purchase wind energy when the wind isn't blowing. Blood from a turnip. Even when your wind is blowing, part of what you're paying for is the coal plant nearby running at reduced output and lower efficiency so that it has immediately available reserve capacity to make up for the wind when/if it dies off suddenly. Look up "regulating reserve" and maybe you'll understand hatred for something that can't regulate.
Build two man-made lakes with an elevation difference between them. Take all the dumb wind off the grid and have it run pumps, from the lower lake to the upper. Run a hydro power station draining water from upper to lower. Now you can actually market green power. Anything else is smoke and mirrors.
In reply to cutter67:
I hate to rain on your parade, but the Roadster isn't compatible with the Supercharger, only the Model S. Luckily Tesla is trying to get other automakers to adopt the SC charging so that all EV's in the future can be charged the same.
ransom wrote: If he lived here, he'd be able to specify that his juice come from wind power for a pretty small additional fee. I don't know whether WY has anything like that. Maybe he's just clueless. Something tells me you have no Tesla stock
You do know that all the juice on the grid is from everywhere. Unless Portland runs new lines out to your house directly from a wind turbine or solar farm, you're just personally subsidizing the wind/solar farm... Anyways, you wouldn't be very happy with the power from either of them or even both of them. Maybe if there is a geothermal, those tend to be pretty consistent for power generation.
In reply to RossD:
Hydro (which is where the vast majority of the power "comes from" for the NW) is pretty dam consistent...
codrus wrote:emodspitfire wrote: So.....do they believe that they only collect electrons from solar panels and wind turbines....(?)Do they have any nuclear plants in Wyoming? High speed neutrons will make CO2-free electrons too. If I had a Tesla (which I won't -- blech), and I lived near San Onofre, I'd want my plate to say "NUKULAR" :)
http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/videos/environmentalists-go-pro-nuclear-in-pandoras-promise-trailer-20130430
cutter67 wrote: as soon as they get a charging station in DC in Hancock MD or Cumberland MD and one in Pittsburgh i will buy one. i spend $12,000.00 a year in fuel making this trip. it is 245 miles it scares me right now because its on the limit and i always stop about half to get something to eat so charging station there would seal the deal for me. i know where there is a 2008 roadster with 3100 miles on it for 50k
there are charge stations all over DC. does it have to be an SC station? heck, there's a tesla dealership in the city.
a few maps: http://evadc.org/charging/ http://carstations.com/ http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html
This thread is worse than the Ford/GM/Dodge loyalties.
You pay for electricity, no matter where it comes from. The extra you pay, in theory, should pay into the alternative subsidies. Also, doesn't PA have 3mile island?
emodspitfire wrote: Saw a Tesla 4-door this weekend in WY: License plate is: "ZEROCO2"...... So.....do they believe that they only collect electrons from solar panels and wind turbines....(?) I think it's time to short Tesla stock.... Rog
The only Tesla owner I know fuels off his own solar panels & Tesla superchargers when he travels. So yeah - it can happen.
One thing that enthusiasts might like about electric cars:
An AC induction motor has similar efficiency (well over 90%) running at 10% capacity or 100% capacity.
The energy consumption penalty for a 400-hp motor instead of a 100-hp motor is minimal. Same goes for actually using all that power on acceleration - there's no fuel-air mixture to enrich...
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