Opening a can of worms - FWD vs RWD

One thing that hasn't been brought up is weight. FWDs tend be front heavy, but they also tend to be tightly packaged and light.

Another is that they are cheap. People tell me RWDs are better, but they normally aren't faster than me and their cars are more expensive (both in cost to buy and cost to upkeep).

When all of the cows come in, I autocross FWDs. I own 4 RWDs and an AWD and a FWD and the FWD is the weapon of choice. Cheap tires, economy minded part prices, the enjoyment of beating a powerful expensive car with a plastic Saturn; What is not to love?

cloud81918 wrote: One thing that hasn't been brought up is weight. FWDs tend be front heavy, but they also tend to be tightly packaged and light. Another is that they are cheap. People tell me RWDs are better, but they normally aren't faster than me and their cars are more expensive (both in cost to buy and cost to upkeep).

How does this quote jibe with Miata ownership? Miatas are light, RWD, inexpensive to buy, and inexpensive to own.

And most small economy cars in the '70s are cheap, RWD and light...

FWD's advantage is in packaging to get more interior footroom in a small car, but modern FWD cars still get intrusive center consoles and the like that are the equal of any small RWD economy car from the '70s, so even that isn't a factor anymore (proof is in the V8 RWD conversion for Focus' that uses the stock center tunnel and still fits).

Given similar development criteria, there's no reason a RWD small car can't be packaged as well as a modern FWD one, and cost any more to buy or own.

The problem is that modern RWD small cars don't exist. The miata is about as close as it comes in the modern FR world, and even the new miata pushes approximately ZERO of my buttons.

What other small RWD cars have there been since say... 1990. A select few.

In reply to Chris_V: The Miata is one. I can name many FWDs that are light and tightly packaged. In most cases as we have here, there are exceptions.

Most RWD econo-cars were left over remnants of old car design. I'm not saying bad, I'm saying that there are savings to be had buy going FWD, the market has shown that. Many of these cars are also body on frame, but no one would defend them for that.

RWD certainly costs more to build and therefor costs more to buy and more to own. You have a driveshaft. You have a separate casing for the rear-diff. You have more mounts; having separate mounts for the engine, trans and rear-diff.

On the assembly line you have added a couple of more steps. You will have to have someone put in more bolts and the powertrain will take up more space as it is brought towards the engine. I'll grant you are economies of scale the RWD option may seem small, maybe $20. But there are accountants that would count the beans and talk to marketing. In the end, they'd tell you, you'll lose .02% of sales but make you're investors a profit. You tend to choose the path that seems safest.

The Miata is a great car and very durable. But as a whole, more parts means more parts can break. From a manufacture's point of view, there has to be some infant mortality with driveshaft joints and benefit in terms of doing warranty service (I know the whole Saturn powertrain comes out as one unit with little work). Such thing factor into price.

RWD drive cars can be tightly packaged and inexpensive to buy an own, to be reasonable the Miata is a great car and while a great example, proving it can be done, it is the only example; Perhaps proving just how difficult a good, inexpensive, tightly packaged RWD can be. In the end a FWD CRX Si or Civic Si made out of leftover parts at the Honda plant can still hang.

Don't get me wrong in my FWD defense, I love RWD and FWD, I sign myself to no camp, but I race an know FWD pretty well. FWDs are capable of amazing things as long as you aren't wanting to land a ton of horsepower onto the ground.

Lots of mistypes, hopefully it is readable. Sorry, no editing is allowed on this board.

I'm going to say...neither.

All the "purists" will scoff because they think that AWD somehow requires "less skill" or "drives for you", but AWD is the most fun to drive. Why? You can easily rotate the rear end and throttle steer like a RWD car, but still have the "recoverability" at the limit like a FWD car. Sure, in stock form you will have understeer much like FWD, but suspension setup and tire pressures can eliminate much or all of it.

Superiority in rain and snow doesn't hurt either. Just ask the BMW club guys that I autocross with and it always seems to rain at events....

Honestly, after owning this wrx I have no interest whatsoever in having my daily driver or autocrosser be anything other than AWD ever again.

(btw, I have daily driven and autocrossed several FWD and RWD cars).

flame suit on.

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Also someone asked about affordable AWD cars that don't require an engine swap. Odd question. You can get a new WRX (265+hp stock) for under $25k or a used 09 for under 20k, or a used 06 for 10k. And extra power doesn't need a swap, it just needs a Tactrix cable and a downpipe :)

Chris_V wrote: How does this quote jibe with Miata ownership? Miatas are light, RWD, inexpensive to buy, and inexpensive to own.

the OP seems to be talking about daily drivers/weekend warriors and also mentions snow.

Miatas are outstanding cars for what they are for: motorsports and cruising in nice weather. But what if you want to carry your tires (yes, I know...tire tail) or 3 friends or go through a foot of snow?

For daily driver: FWD. For autocross/weekend toy/track day car/anything performance: RWD

/thread

ReverendDexter wrote:

jstein77 wrote: I'm surprised no one else has mentioned 4wd in this debate.

How many cheap, fun, AWD cars do you know of that don't require an engine swap to get there?

Suby... 2.2 & 2.5 RS's...'nough said...

The operable word is light. Light RWD is a ball to drive as is light FWD. Think original Mini Cooper, Civic and Miata. Those days are gone and won't be back. We expect a lot more from vehicles now with respect to safety, comfort and convenience. I've driven a thousand miles in a Mini with two kids and two other adults, memorable but not something I'm in a rush to repeat. I'll sacrifice some tossability for AC and operable windows.

irish44j wrote: the OP seems to be talking about daily drivers/weekend warriors and also mentions snow.

Snow was only mentioned as a reference to why I don't like a particular configuration. Any vehicle I pick up will not ever need to see any form of frozen water.

93celicaGT2 wrote: What other small RWD cars have there been since say... 1990. A select few.

I would add the Toyota MR2/MR-S and the BMW 318ti and Z3 to that list..

as with racing....... its the tires baby....

In winter conditions, run a minus 1 tire/wheel combo with PROPER snow tires on ALL four wheels...

mad_machine wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: What other small RWD cars have there been since say... 1990. A select few.

I would add the Toyota MR2/MR-S and the BMW 318ti and Z3 to that list..

Agreed, but the MR2/MR-S isn't packaged FR, the 318ti is a decent example. The Z3, out of my price range. Yeah, i know this isn't all about me or anything, but the point is that small/light FWDs are readily available to me/people like me, and in massive abundance. Small/light RWDs aren't.

How much does a 318ti weigh? Or a Z3? Light to me is 2500lbs or under.

Other than those, you've got what... the Lotus Elise/Exige?

All I know is that I can get my Neon and my Charger 2.2 to rotate and all my RWD cars were nearly useless in the snow, while my FWD cars would trek through nearly anything. In fact, I had a Neon with Winterfire snow tires which was better on a snowy road than any of my 4wd trucks with all-seasons. My RWD cars with snows could not make it up hills and loved to go sideways.

In reply to lateapexer:

lightness is coming back. Look for more composites and carbon fiber, even in mainstream cars. This will be the only way manufacturers will be able to meet both safety and mileage standards.

Chris_V wrote: How does this quote jibe with Miata ownership? Miatas are light, RWD, inexpensive to buy, and inexpensive to own.

Clearly you haven't been to Canada. Miatas are NOT cheap. Like, we are talking $6K+ for an early 90's one (maybe with a hardtop if you are lucky).

Its essentially like pricing with an AE86. Even the cheap, rusty, beat miatas sell for $3k and are barely daily drivable.

And finally, as somebody said, AWD FTMFW! I might be picking up a mint one owner 2.5RS (2000 with rear lsd w00t)

Chris_V wrote:

cloud81918 wrote: One thing that hasn't been brought up is weight. FWDs tend be front heavy, but they also tend to be tightly packaged and light. Another is that they are cheap. People tell me RWDs are better, but they normally aren't faster than me and their cars are more expensive (both in cost to buy and cost to upkeep).

How does this quote jibe with Miata ownership? Miatas are light, RWD, inexpensive to buy, and inexpensive to own. And most small economy cars in the '70s are cheap, RWD and light... FWD's advantage is in packaging to get more interior footroom in a small car, but modern FWD cars still get intrusive center consoles and the like that are the equal of any small RWD economy car from the '70s, so even that isn't a factor anymore (proof is in the V8 RWD conversion for Focus' that uses the stock center tunnel and still fits). Given similar development criteria, there's no reason a RWD small car can't be packaged as well as a modern FWD one, and cost any more to buy or own.

At one time, FWD was more cost-effective to manufacture on assembly lines (engine and trans installed as a unit) and more interior space. Not sure of that is still true. I still won't by an RWD as my daily drive as I find them much less useful on snow. I should say front engine rear drive. Old Beetles are awesome in snow.

HiTempguy wrote:

Chris_V wrote: How does this quote jibe with Miata ownership? Miatas are light, RWD, inexpensive to buy, and inexpensive to own.

Clearly you haven't been to Canada. Miatas are NOT cheap. Like, we are talking $6K+ for an early 90's one (maybe with a hardtop if you are lucky). Its essentially like pricing with an AE86. Even the cheap, rusty, beat miatas sell for $3k and are barely daily drivable. And finally, as somebody said, AWD FTMFW! I might be picking up a mint one owner 2.5RS (2000 with rear lsd w00t)

Really? That's pretty rough; I bet you hate all the cheap miata threads here

93celicaGT2 wrote:

mad_machine wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: What other small RWD cars have there been since say... 1990. A select few.

I would add the Toyota MR2/MR-S and the BMW 318ti and Z3 to that list..

Agreed, but the MR2/MR-S isn't packaged FR, the 318ti is a decent example. The Z3, out of my price range. Yeah, i know this isn't all about me or anything, but the point is that small/light FWDs are readily available to me/people like me, and in massive abundance. Small/light RWDs aren't. How much does a 318ti weigh? Or a Z3? Light to me is 2500lbs or under. Other than those, you've got what... the Lotus Elise/Exige?

Not sure on the z3... the Ti is about 2700 wet... I am about to work on getting mine down to around 2400

See STS2 results from most of last season.

Generally you'll see CRX- top Miata- not so top.

Apparently, given the same set up restrictions, FWD can handle pretty darned well....

It's a big discussion over at Miata.net to close that gap.

Andy Hollis spent a bunch of money trying to get a Miata to be competitive in STS2. I notice he's back running his Civic again.

jstein77 wrote: Andy Hollis spent a bunch of money trying to get a Miata to be competitive in STS2. I notice he's back running his Civic again.

Sometimes manufacturers manage to produce something that "gloriously" lives beyond its' intent. The 4th gen Civic platform is a good example.

Mazda is another company that has scored a bullseye by introducing and continuing the Miata - yeah, even the NC's.

The correct answer is AWD, in the form of a minivan based on a car disguised as a pickup truck.

Andy wasn't "trying" to get the car competitive; he did it, and then he moved on. It's not as if he got tired of trying to push that boulder up the hill and realized it was futile.

alfadriver wrote: See STS2 results from most of last season. Generally you'll see CRX- top Miata- not so top. Apparently, given the same set up restrictions, FWD can handle pretty darned well.... It's a big discussion over at Miata.net to close that gap.

All true, but remember that the Civics/CRXs have had a gigantic head start in development time and effort. They are literally YEARS ahead of the Miatas at this point...the Miatas have a lot of catching up to do (literally and figuratively).