Order of Magnitude Challenge? Flame suit on. Thoughts?

What if we had the budget to build cars that we could compete with in the challenge, and also have a great toy car for after the challenge?

I don't like the fact that after all the hours and effort it takes to build a challenge car, for the most part they get scrapped after the event unless they come back in another year with mods. Yes, I do get it that sweat equity is meant to be a replacement for $$$ and the whole goal of "Grassroots", but still, I prefer not to build something that has only a three day mission in life.

So what if there were a separate class for $20k budgets? I set it that high because it would not necessarily draw from the main body of competitors. A lot of people like the $2000 budget because that is what they can afford cash-flow-wise. I would like to see what similarly creative minds, to whom $20k is not a big deal, could build for the same competitive events. 

Just a thought from a post-whore.

Pete

For 20K I could build something that would need a whole different level of safety and liability. Especially at the drags. 

There's already an exhibition class...

In all honesty that's why the direction of my build is definitely more autocross focused. I don't mind autocrossing and rallycrossing a E36 M3box at the regional level, even if it gets thrown into SM and M respectively. Also I'm far less likely to gernade drivetrain components on an autocross focused build and I like having different course layout every month. It's just personal preference.

All that being said, drag racing is more accessible for many people and there can be a gambling component to it if you're willing. I'm still waiting for the Nelsons' to show up in a $40k car that they won via racing for pinks in their $2k build. As per the rules, as far as I can see, that would be legal. Not that they need anymore help in dominating, but it's a loophole that I'd love to see exploited. 

I would contend 10K would get the job done

My little Datsun 1200 has 9K in it after 36 years of ownership.

I've calculated the cost of various engine swaps (note I'm a purchasing analyst so it's all on spreadsheets) and after selling the existing drivetrain and the cost of the motor swap I could easily make 10K. The lap times would be somewhere between Spec & Super Miata. The 1/4 mile would be 14 flat.

I could also convert my F500 to a sports racer configuration and have a car that would be one of the faster all but the fastest road cars. I only have 6K in the car now.  It would crush an autocross course (it's only slightly slower than a shifter Kart now) and would be down in the 10s for the 1/4 mile.

20K is probably more realistic but I'd love to see the creativity of the 10K cap.  I think the results would be surprising given what people currently do with 10K.

Me likey.   I have a build that will be more expensive than the 2k challenge, but also a car I am building for my enjoyment.  Should come in right around 6k for my budget.

I would agree with you that it would be fun but also I think you have to understand that the premise of the 2k challenge is as much a competition as it is a marketing/content creation event for GRM to promote GRM.  As such a 20k challenge would not get them the marketing exposure that they are looking for.  I also think that at the 20K mark you would end up with allot of shops and sponsored type builds.  Almost a poor mans Sema in a way.  Not that this is a bad thing.  Also (from what I am told as I have never been to a challenge) the event its self is important.  It is about being there and the people and the fun of the event and allot less about the actual cars.  Kind of an excuse for GRM to have a party?

GRM was way ahead of the curve with the 2K challenge.  It was kind of a Lemons type event before lemons became a thing.  

The flip side to all this is that when I found GRM I was much young and as time has gone on I have done well and although I remember my roots I don't want to race / drive some of the spectacularly craptastic cars I once did.  I can afford not to now.  As such a 20K build while not in the budget for some is in the budget for others.  GRM does a fantastic job of covering the spectrum of finance in the automotive world.  They have reviewed 100K+ 911's and 5K Toyotas.  What people loose track of is that Grassroots does not mean cheep.  That is absolutely not the case (Tim corrected me on this years ago here on the forums). Grassroots means at the local level.  And at the local level you have a wide range of people and there financial situations.  GRM has always been focused at the local level that includes everyone no matter there financial situation.  All are welcome to the party and GRM does there absolute best to provide something for everyone while also making it interesting to everyone.  This to me is what has made GRM absolutely unique.  

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

If other classes, or events were to be added a $3k and $6k class would be my suggestion, with recoup being half of what the class budget amount is. Though I'd prefer not to rock the boat via adding additional classes unless there was an additional standal event for a few reasons.

1) the challenge is difficult, increasing the budget makes it less so. 

2) the best and most fun classes have the most competitors within them. Adding classes thins the herd in nearly every class. 

There's an entire book of SCCA rules that you can build a challenge car around- autocross or track.  Or build a vintage racer.  Or build a drag racer.

If I had built another challenge car, it would have been a build for further racing.

BTW, IMHO, the most reasonable place to build a challenge car around would be one of the prepared classes.   Next would be DM or EM.  Those have the most open rules that makes a Challenge car more straight forward.

I'm still enjoying my $2017 Challenge Miata as a fair weather daily driver.  Admittedly, it was a mid pack car.  To get a fun street car after the challenge, it's best to accept you'll be unlikely to trophy, or target one of the subclasses.  Last year, I won CAM in a car with a full interior, and on 300TW tires.  First trophy I've gotten at the challenge, despite bringing gutted and prepped cars in past events.  Sub-$1000 might be another possibility, if you make liberal use of self trade rules to "sell" the interior, then reinstall it after the event.

If there was a 20k class, I suspect we'd be seeing some 8 second cars in the drags.  Hell with a 20K class, I could see a situation where an entire suspension/aero package could be swapped out in the parking lot between events.  What I am getting at, I guess, is if you had a class like that, it wouldn't be possible to build a street car that would be competitive, as you'd have others taking it very seriously.

EDIT:  What I'd like to see is a revival of SCC's Ultimate Street Car Challenge, combined with a budget cap like GRM has, but the logistics of doing that with more than a dozen or so cars would be difficult.

The GRM Ultimate Track Car Challenge has no price cap, no speed cap and no horsepower cap!!!!  

The "20k class" sounds like a class that should exist for the UTCC instead... (though I am interested to see if a challenge car could run with the UTCC and see how it would do). 

For the challenge, as mentioned, there are at least 3 ways to use your challenge car after the challenge. 1. is to build it to an SCCA autox class, 2. is to build it to an NHRA class, 3. is to build it as a gastropodish car. Ed Malle got 3rd place with his daily driver... I believe he also used it to tow a small trailer a not-insignificant-distance to get to the challenge and then get home. He's been building it since 2014? or so. 

My next challenge car will fit method number 3. 

John Welsh said:

The GRM Ultimate Track Car Challenge has no price cap, no speed cap and no horsepower cap!!!!  

HA you posted that while I was typing. 

NOHOME said:

What if we had the budget to build cars that we could compete with in the challenge, and also have a great toy car for after the challenge?

I don't like the fact that after all the hours and effort it takes to build a challenge car, for the most part they get scrapped after the event unless they come back in another year with mods. Yes, I do get it that sweat equity is meant to be a replacement for $$$ and the whole goal of "Grassroots", but still, I prefer not to build something that has only a three day mission in life.

I think in order to win the $20k challenge, you might still end up with a car with a 3 day mission.  The only difference is dumping $20k is a tougher pill to swallow for most than dumping $2k

Perhaps One Lap needs a price-cap/budget class.

Or do they have that already? I have not been paying enough attention.

That is exactly my intention. Right now I sit with a $300 budget. There is a T5 I traded for the TH400.  I can swap my 3:54 pumpkin for the 2:88. Throw on a set of used tires for?  Build the cage. Maybe put the fuel cell in and racing seat. And still be under $2000. or I'll run with the stock fuel tank and regrind my camshafts. 
    But to run with SVRA  and other vintage groups I'll need to add another $5000  worth of safety stuff.  Plus wheels and tires for the class.  
 Still that leaves me with about a $3000 budget for go fast parts. Hmmmm  pistons & rings, $1500, Tubular sway bars and Shock absorbers.  Yeh!!! $10,000

ProDarwin said:
I think in order to win the $20k challenge, you might still end up with a car with a 3 day mission.  The only difference is dumping $20k is a tougher pill to swallow for most than dumping $2k

This.

Racecars are like goldfish; they will expand to fill whatever container you place them in.

I'll add, and this isn't competition related, that challenge cars can serve great benefit after their initial use in the challenge.  There are several charities within many regions that take donated vehicles, perform routine maintenance and ensure that they're in good operating condition and then give them two families in need that can use reliable transportation to ensure that the adults within the family can commute to work and the kids can get to school and to after school activities. 

A challenge car, or former challenge car, is a great method for awareness of these organizations. I'm not saying you're suggesting that you donate the challenge car. I'm suggesting that you reach out to the organization about them having one of their partners provide graphics for the challenge car in order to raise awareness and to promote their charity. The tie-in and connection is doing more with less with regards to dollar amount spent on a vehicle. 

The benefit to you is now that vehicle has an avenue for additional exposure at the local and regional level. The vehicle will have a following an audience that is beyond standard autocross or drag strip night patrons. You can reach out to potential would be sponsorship partners with regards to items for the car, and/or depending on interest or response, them providing items to the charitable partner via a tax deductible donation. Making those inroads can provide far more value to the hours spent on a project beyond the $2k budget spent. 

This model could also be followed with a local trade school or community college 

In reply to matthewmcl (Forum Supporter) :

Gridlife Sunday Cup is close-ish. 

With regards to the UTTC, I'd like to see a "Sunday Cup budget class" where the vehicles are not those eligible within the Sunday Cup, but the budget limitation is an average of the KBB value of the 5 most popular models within the Sunday Cup class. 

I sometimes think about inflation and the $2000 cap. I imagine that it's a lot harder to build a car for $2000 than it used to be, and yet the competitors keep bringing amazing and potent builds year after year. I wonder if someday that we'll reach the limits of what $2000 can do, but we haven't gotten there yet in my opinion.

$20k is way too big of a jump.  $4k, $5k as the cap for a prized exhibition class, I could see that.

How fast could the Nelson's go on $20k instead of $2k? 

RevRico said:

How fast could the Nelson's go on $20k instead of $2k? 

Just for S&G, I put a 2200 lb car with 1000 flywheel horsepower into a quarter mile calculator.  It spit out 7.87 at 181 MPH.

Why would increasing the budget cap on a single purpose car, change the single purpose-fullness of the car?  If you don't want a one trick pony don't build one, but the ragged edge of challenge competitiveness will always consist of vehicles built specifically to win there- that's the nature of competition vehicles.

RevRico said:

How fast could the Nelson's go on $20k instead of $2k? 

All the fast.

 My 2019 Challenge winning car got a full season of competitive autocross the following year with no changes. Admittedly, it was a one-trick pony and that's ultimately why I sold it. 

My hot rod started out as a Challenge build...now it's like a 4x Challenge build and bad at everything except looking awesome.

Cool concept. The event itself would need re-work though to keep in the spirit of cars we actually want to own. I suggest additional scored events like successful navigation of a drive-thru, pot hole impact test, complaints-per-hour of your SO on a 200 mile drive, etc...