Order of Magnitude Challenge? Flame suit on. Thoughts?

In reply to RevRico :

Love to find out . One of the reasons I posted this.

In reply to NOHOME :

On this forum? No. In the world of readers, advertisers and sponsors? Oh yeah.

Takes all kinds of critters to make Farmer Vincent's fritters--and events are no different. Except, you know, we don't use preservatives.

Margie

Agreed that the challenge is  a piece of flypaper for the focused sales marketing. And it seems to work

But... As hard to believe as it is for some, 2k is money not worth bending over  to pick up. Some of those people live among us even if incognito. I want to see what they would bring to the table if given the chance to do so. It would open up a new level of advertising marketing for our host. 

Just a thought

In reply to GameboyRMH :

Hacked lowered red truck became Michael's awesome red truck!!!  

The winning Aristocrat, my Q45, was the 10 place finisher overall.  I drove it to and from the event, 1000 miles each way. I continued to take my kid to school in it and autox it some.  I sold it to Pat who still drives hs kids in it as well as occasional autox.    The #9 finisher that year was a Firebird that that was also driven over 1000 miles to a fro the event.  It got some slight mods and went on to be the Detroit CAM champ! 

I will agree that $2k doesn't buy what it used to, even in 2015.  Lift the limit?  Sure.  But, only a lift.  
The game is still about, what can you do with what seems like limiting restrictions/budget?  

In reply to NOHOME :

It's a thought exercise. No harm in that, even if it's only mental juices that get flowing. 

To me, a $20k challenge would not be that interesting.  I know it's just a number, but that number is something needed to run a cheap SP car up to the front of the grid.  And it happens pretty much all the time.  So at $20k challenge would be any SCCA event with a drag race added in.

What makes the $2k part interesting is the creativity that it takes to stay at $2020 for the entire build.  Instead of spending $6k on Penske shocks, someone has to compromise on a used set of Koni's, perhaps learning how to DIY rebuild them, and even more- learning how to improve on them with some small tweaks.

And on the drag racing front, it's interesting to see Hot Rod do "budget" builds that are $4-6k, and only be slaughtered by multiple $2k cars that show up at the challenge.  When we see 10 sec cars for $2k, when "experts" can manage 12 seconds for 3x that much.  

So doing 8 seconds for $20k isn't all that interesting.

The big thing that nobody has ever bragged about, or GRM has not done a feature about, is a top car, and is competitive at a National event.

The most recent car that I think would have been a great SCCA car was the Hong's Caddy, which was a perfect CP car.  Everything fit for CP- weight, engine, etc- just add slicks.  That car would have been interesting to see at a national championship.  (and it was FTD at it's Challenge)

In reply to NOHOME :

Raise the budget too high and someone will show up with a real ( recently) obsolete race car.  That will put the whole concept of the challenge in Jeopardy 

frenchyd said:

In reply to NOHOME :

Raise the budget too high and someone will show up with a real ( recently) obsolete race car.  That will put the whole concept of the challenge in Jeopardy 

You didn't need an order of magnitude for that to happen- a Formula Ford showed up really early in the challenge.  And it did change the rules- added a "race" class to the "street" class.  And I recall when I was there, a former Firestone Challenge car entered, too.

In reply to alfadriver :

I was thinking something more like a Corvette or Viper 

frenchyd said:

In reply to alfadriver :

I was thinking something more like a Corvette or Viper 

Which one of those that was recently obsolete would be $20k?  I can't even think that an long obsolete one would be $20k if it's a real race car.  A previous generation Cup car might be, though.  But I don't think they would be terribly good autocrossers.

There are a lot more readers who build more expensive cars who don't go to the challenge and wouldn't even consider doing it than there are competitors and attendees. Sure we watch from afar on the internet checking build threads, read about each individual car in the magazine issue, and certainly appreciate the effort, creativity, and work put in but we wouldn't do it ourselves. A different type of event might attract more expensive cars and be more in line with the products advertisers are promoting in the magazine. As has been mentioned over the years, grassroots as used by GRM doesn't necessarily mean cheap. There's a lot of us building cars more expensive than Challenge cars, less expensive than concours cars, and not as single focused as UTCC cars. I suspect we're the majority of readers.

Would there actually NEED to be a "winner" if there was an event for more expensive cars? What if there was an event where there were things like drag strip, auto-X, or road course activities combined with drives, a cruise night or other types of things but there was no timing (recorded), scoring, or any type of points compilation.  Just a big automotive gathering to play with cars. Want to feel like the burn out king? Head on over to the burn out box and knock yourself out! Want to see if you can pull a G cornering, head on over to the skid pad. Always wanted to try a drag strip but don't want anyone else to know what you ran? Never ran over a cone, today you can!

Without any rules (other than safety equipment required for certain activities), budgets, build book requirements, and what not, people could build cars without restraints or bring cars they already have and there might be less work for the GRM staff.

If there was such an event I'm sure there'd be cars that actually had products purchased from the magazine advertisers. Companies like Wilwood, Koni, and Optima who buy full page ads might see more of a benefit from event coverage featuring cars that have bought their products new and installed them on nice cars. Folks would bring their cars to have fun, meet other GRMers and so on just like the Challenge.

I've always wondered, does the $2000.00 Challenge need to be annual? Would every other year attract more competitors if they had the extra year to spread out the build costs as well as travel expenses? Would spacing out the Challenge events allow GRM to experiment and try other types of events?

Would there actually NEED to be a "winner" if there was an event for more expensive cars?

 yes

In reply to NOT A TA :

Does it "need" to be a yearly event? I'm not sure I understand the question.
 

I didn't think yearly participation or attendance was mandatory. Anyone can choose not to attend. 

TL:DR everything, but was the idea of making a higher limit using a sliding scale suggested?

For example:

10% of MSRP for cars with MSRP < $20k

8% of MSRP for cars with MSRP between $20k and $30k

7% of MSRP for cars with MSRP between $30k and $40k

It's not a big increase, but could bring some new (er) options into the mix. 

NOHOME said:

But... As hard to believe as it is for some, 2k is money not worth bending over  to pick up. Some of those people live among us even if incognito. I want to see what they would bring to the table if given the chance to do so.

OK wealthy people of GRM, here's how you do this without changing the challenge budget:

• Buy tools.  CNC machines, welders, 3d scanners, lifts, build tables.  This is all budget exempt.
• Don't have the ability to engineer parts yourself?  Buy the parts you want and reverse engineer them.  Fabricate near-exact copies from scrap using your well equipped shop for minimal budget hit.
• Don't have the ability to reverse engineer and fabricate?  Get teammates.  A large number of capable people exist on this forum who would join your team and lend their time to your challenge effort in exchange for use of your now-pro-level motorsports shop.
• Test.  Rent track time, use data acquisition, tune to perfection.  Yet again, if this is something you can't do yourself there are people here who will join your team just to use the stuff.
• Driver training, in the car.  This comes after or during testing, and your superior budget will allow you to do as much as you want without having to increase the budget cap of the car itself.

Hey look at that, I just figured out how to spend $100k of your dollars on a $2k challenge car.

In reply to NOT A TA :

 Pretty much sums up what I was thinking.  More of a competition of build thread cars.  At this level, I would expect all cars to show up with plates and insurance. 

Been a fun conversation.

KyAllroad said:

Former Challenge car living that EMod life.  Built for $1700 and sold for about that.   I enjoy being in the mix for FTD against $50,000 rides.  You can have a LOT of fun for pretty short money.

Of all the cars to not have a Rides entry!

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

OK wealthy people of GRM, here's how you do this without changing the challenge budget:

• Buy tools.  CNC machines, welders, 3d scanners, lifts, build tables.  This is all budget exempt.
• Don't have the ability to engineer parts yourself?  Buy the parts you want and reverse engineer them.  Fabricate near-exact copies from scrap using your well equipped shop for minimal budget hit.
• Don't have the ability to reverse engineer and fabricate?  Get teammates.  A large number of capable people exist on this forum who would join your team and lend their time to your challenge effort in exchange for use of your now-pro-level motorsports shop.
• Test.  Rent track time, use data acquisition, tune to perfection.  Yet again, if this is something you can't do yourself there are people here who will join your team just to use the stuff.
• Driver training, in the car.  This comes after or during testing, and your superior budget will allow you to do as much as you want without having to increase the budget cap of the car itself.

Hey look at that, I just figured out how to spend $100k of your dollars on a $2k challenge car.

^There is no budget except whats on the car. I've probably spent as much on tools as a challenge car because I started with basically nothing my first year going to the event. The amount of wheels, suspension part duplicates I've owned for "challenge cars because I found a slightly better deal on a used part is alarming. I just purchased parts this week to replicate them. 

I'm sure when it comes to our higher skilled competitors their would be diminishing levels of returns after a certain dollar amount. I think the biggest return they would see is in time spent on the build.      
 

I'd rather have a very fast stock vehicle to compare the challenge cars to at the event. I think that gives the readers a better understanding of just how good some of the challenge cars are

edit: I think there are other events out there that aren't the challenge that your crazy build could go to

Andy Neuman said:
I'd rather have a very fast stock vehicle to compare the challenge cars to at the event. I think that gives the readers a better understanding of just how good some of the challenge cars are

This is just you looking for a reason to buy another Viper, isn't it?

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to NOT A TA :

Does it "need" to be a yearly event? I'm not sure I understand the question.
 

I didn't think yearly participation or attendance was mandatory. Anyone can choose not to attend. 

I didn't question whether participation or attendance was mandatory. I questioned whether holding the event annually was necessary. Would having the challenge held less frequently hurt GRM as a company or help it?

My thoughts were

Perhaps if the $2,000.00 Challenge was held less frequently it would free up staff time to try new different types of events and would free up editorial space in an issue normally dedicated to the challenge to cover other aspects of the hobby. The first challenge was kinda like that where it was just a one shot thing where people threw together a car with a $1,500.00 budget for a one time event. At that time there was no expectation of refining the car year after year but then when the challenge returned a couple years later and became an annual event it began evolving into what we have currently. 

If it was held less frequently it might increase the # of participants who show up for each one. A bigger party held less often so to speak. Would the Olympics be as big a deal if it was held annually?  Also, by spacing the challenges farther apart there's more of an incentive to finish the project for each one. As it is now some folks say "Well I'm behind schedule so I'll just go next year instead".

If held less frequently new attendees might be more likely to give it a try knowing they have more time to build. Seems the winners have vehicles they've refined over longer than a year. So a potential new participant looks at the previous winners thinking "Can I possibly build something better than that in just a year?" and if their answer is no they may decide not to get involved at all and move on to something else to spend their time and money on. If they had a longer period of time before the next event they might be more likely to make an attempt.

ProDarwin said:

Would there actually NEED to be a "winner" if there was an event for more expensive cars?

 yes

OK 

Also, you guys know you can already run over-budget cars in exhibition class right?  All that's needed for a battle of the build threads would be for a bunch of people to enter exhibition one year.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Andy Neuman said:
I'd rather have a very fast stock vehicle to compare the challenge cars to at the event. I think that gives the readers a better understanding of just how good some of the challenge cars are

This is just you looking for a reason to buy another Viper, isn't it?

Multiple times I've been there, I've seen a press car put through its paces at the challenge, and yes, quite a few challenge cars are faster.  However, I don't think the manufacturers would appreciate that kind of article, so I've never seen results published.  Maybe better would be for some of the GRM project cars to run the event, too.  Would love to see how JG's Corvette stacks up.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Also, you guys know you can already run over-budget cars in exhibition class right?  All that's needed for a battle of the build threads would be for a bunch of people to enter exhibition one year.

This isn't exactly true. Exhibition is for cars that at the last minute go over budget by accident. I guess it's a loose rule but no one wants to exploit an exhibition loophole (yet haha).

For everyone that wants to just bring their project car to a party, I'm down. Heck, let's plan a weekend next summer. Friday night test and tune, Saturday autox, Sunday cars and coffee, we can pick a location that's not Florida so we can get some folks who haven't been able to make the challenge in the past. 

Of course, the much easier button is to just pick a gridlife event and tell everyone to make it.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

All I see is the following:

Vehicles that don’t fit these requirements may ask to run for exhibition only. Vehicles running for exhibition will be marked with “Exhibition” stickers.

So it's a "with permission" thing I guess, but GRM probably wouldn't say no to a bunch of forum cars running.