It's possible to hook up high power/weight with good suspension and decent tires. This is 500-ish hp, 2600 lbs and 245-section 200TW tires on a non-prepared surface. But once you break free, it's harder to get the traction back. Static vs sliding friction and all that.
0-150 mph acceleration test, just because it's fun to see/hear.
Mmmmm anyone remember the 1992 Indy 500 where a bunch of the best drivers in the world got caught out by cold tires??
It happens to some of the best drivers so someone brand new can be cut some slack................I feel for the guy, even if I think he should have been more cautious.
In reply to Tom1200 :
IIRC it was several years, no?
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Could have been but 92 sticks out becuase I went to an Indy 500 party.
Trying to find the list but there's like 15+ F1 drivers who have had spins on the warm up lap.
Reminds me of when the pace car driver crashed the Corvette at Indy.
johndej said:Trying to find the list but there's like 15+ F1 drivers who have had spins on the warm up lap.
"cold tires" may be a valid explanation for a pro driver who's being paid to go as fast as possible and crashes someone else's car, but the situation is pretty different when you're driving your own car at a track day for fun.
BlueInGreen - Jon said:Reminds me of when the pace car driver crashed the Corvette at Indy.
Yeah but to be fair to that guy... that was a ZL1, which is somehow even more insane than the C7 Z06.
It happened to this guy last weekend on the out lap at Daytona. He didn't even make it off pit road before spinning the car. Very cold tires.
Several years ago, Patrick Dempsey actually hit the pit road wall in the same spot, due to cold tires
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:johndej said:Trying to find the list but there's like 15+ F1 drivers who have had spins on the warm up lap.
"cold tires" may be a valid explanation for a pro driver who's being paid to go as fast as possible and crashes someone else's car, but the situation is pretty different when you're driving your own car at a track day for fun.
I agree, but I'd bet this guy wasn't used to driving the car in ambient temps that chilly. I don't know what tires were on it, or the exact temp that day, but any soft, sticky summer tire pretty much turn into hockey puck hardness below 50°. If it was that cold, and he wasn't used to driving it in those conditions, it'd be suuuper easy to spin it.
In reply to Saron81 :
And that's a really good reason to leave the nannies on for the 1st session. Or at least until the tires are up to temp.
Incidents like this have always made me hesitant to track one of my cars, since I tend to subscribe to the "if you can't afford to walk away from it, you can't afford to track it" premise. However, I have somewhat reached that point with my current MINI, so I can't really use that as an excuse anymore. If I wrecked the car, it would annoying, but it wouldn't have an adverse effect on me financially. I also know a few guys who have wrecked cars at track days. While it's simple to say, "take it easy" that is not really the point of doing a track day, now is it? I don't know... I have NJMP not far from me and they host a few Track Night in America sessions during the season.
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
HPDE insurance is available from a couple of outlets. It's usually based on the value you want insured, so for an expensive car, it's not cheap but worth it for peace of mind if you're tracking a car that would be financially painful to write off, or that you would need to replace to make it to work on Monday.
For our 2018 ZL1 Camaro, it cost about $400 which covered either a single day, or an event weekend. We tried to do two day events with the car to spread the cost. Our 2017 Mustang GT was under $200 for the same day/weekend coverage.
The insurance added to the high cost of tracking the ZL1, and that was a big part of why we sold it. Didn't help that my wife and I both had more fun driving our Miata.
BradLTL said:What is it with people killing C7 Z06s?
This happened at an autocross right in front of me last year. Kinda looks like the same thing with the tires lighting up and breaking loose:
I don't know what made me cringe more, the music in the first video or the guy tripping the start beam like 5 times in the autocross one.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:While it's simple to say, "take it easy" that is not really the point of doing a track day, now is it?
That's an important question to ask yourself. How much margin are you willing to leave? Approach the limits carefully to learn where they are, then stay as far away from them as you choose. It's possible to get out there, have a really fun time but not constantly be within a nanosecond of a big accident. Some people don't understand this at all and think every lap is for pole of the last F1 race of the season with the championship on the line. If you approach it more like an enduro where you have to preserve the car and not crash, you have a much higher chance of bringing the car home.
I've done thousands of laps. I very rarely end up off the pavement or facing the wrong way. I also rarely "win" a track day, but I almost always finish it. I'm not exactly tootling around out there in a stock Miata stuck at 1/2 throttle either.
A friend of mine feels that you can't drive at the limit unless you go past it regularly. He put his personal car waaaay off track at one of our public events after three laps. He hasn't driven on a track in over a decade now and that car never went on the track again under his ownership.
Who's having more fun?
Saron81 said:I agree, but I'd bet this guy wasn't used to driving the car in ambient temps that chilly. I don't know what tires were on it, or the exact temp that day, but any soft, sticky summer tire pretty much turn into hockey puck hardness below 50°. If it was that cold, and he wasn't used to driving it in those conditions, it'd be suuuper easy to spin it.
And this is why in the driver's meeting at every single track day I've ever been to, they talk about cold tires and taking it slowly, building up to full power, etc etc.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:While it's simple to say, "take it easy" that is not really the point of doing a track day, now is it? I don't know... I have NJMP not far from me and they host a few Track Night in America sessions during the season.
A track day isn't a competition, you can go there with whatever goals you want. While I don't recommend cruising around the track like a sunday drive (it's kind of a waste of money and will probably annoy the people around you), there's absolutely nothing wrong with going at your own pace.
Keith Tanner said:Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:While it's simple to say, "take it easy" that is not really the point of doing a track day, now is it?
That's an important question to ask yourself. How much margin are you willing to leave? Approach the limits carefully to learn where they are, then stay as far away from them as you choose. It's possible to get out there, have a really fun time but not constantly be within a nanosecond of a big accident. Some people don't understand this at all and think every lap is for pole of the last F1 race of the season with the championship on the line. If you approach it more like an enduro where you have to preserve the car and not crash, you have a much higher chance of bringing the car home.
I've done thousands of laps. I very rarely end up off the pavement or facing the wrong way. I also rarely "win" a track day, but I almost always finish it. I'm not exactly tootling around out there in a stock Miata stuck at 1/2 throttle either.
A friend of mine feels that you can't drive at the limit unless you go past it regularly. He put his personal car waaaay off track at one of our public events after three laps. He hasn't driven on a track in over a decade now and that car never went on the track again under his ownership.Who's having more fun?
More than once I have backed out a situation because I felt it was going to be a case of when, not if the accident is going to happen. I described track days as "all of the danger and expense of wheel to wheel with none of the recognition." I loved driving Miatas because you can race your heart out, and no one really notices.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Honestly, I don't really know. The only correlation I can make is from riding/racing downhill on bicycles and how that compares to when I've done autocross runs.
In the riding situation, the sense of speed tends to be a lot higher - it can be amusing/disheartening to watch a video of yourself going through a section that felt like warp speed when you were riding it, but looks like you were crawling on video. The sense of fear is a lot greater as well. I've hit trees before at speed. It's not fun. While I am more skilled than most of my friends when riding DH at bike parks, I am nowhere near the skill level of a professional (or even most amateurs) DH racer. It's why I enjoy a good jump trail these days more than the steep technical trails I used to love racing on - the fun to chance-of-failure is much better on the jump trail. Once you learn the skills, sailing 30+ feet through the air, 10' off the ground is pretty low risk but never seems to get old on the fun scale.
In autocross, I basically have no fear at all. I go as fast as my skills will allow and the course designers in my region are pretty good at creating low-consequence courses. So in that sense, my concern is I will run out of talent on a track at much higher speeds before I realize it. I guess the solution for me will be to constantly feel like I'm in control and try to stay that way.
In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :
For sure. I'm just pointing out that I don't think most people appreciate how bad sticky summer tires really are in the cold. I can very easily slide my Focus around with half the hp, and twice the traction on the summers when it's cold. 650hp doesn't stand a chance!
The fact that there are real consequences to the DH cycling is what makes you leave a margin. It's really hard to screw up badly enough in autox to do more damage than some cone scuffs if the course is designed well. So autoxers are always probing the limit and going beyond, because it's not even your only run. Interesting side note, that friend I mentioned earlier spent his formative car years autoxing in San Diego.
You're also being timed and scored in autox, which is not the case on a track day. It is the case on time attack, and it's the people who can't tell the difference between a track day and time attack that get in trouble :)
On a track with real consequences and no timing/scoring pressure, you have to take the same approach you currently do to cycling. Go for the fun.
Keith Tanner said: A friend of mine felt that you can't drive at the limit unless you go past it regularly...
Fixed that for you. He went way past his limit, saw the brown flag and parked it.
So far, I've had two moments where I got two tires off going a little wide on the exit. I've also seen a car go hard into a wall about every other track day I've attended. That's helped keep my ego in check.
FWIW: I've been buying track day insurance through Hagerty. It's around $175 for $30k coverage.
CAinCA said:Keith Tanner said: A friend of mine felt that you can't drive at the limit unless you go past it regularly...Fixed that for you. He went way past his limit, saw the brown flag and parked it.
So far, I've had two moments where I got two tires off going a little wide on the exit. I've also seen a car go hard into a wall about every other track day I've attended. That's helped keep my ego in check.
Nope, he still feels that way. He stopped track driving because his friends were not supportive of how cool it was to shut down our event while we literally had to dig his car out of the dirt because he was being an idiot. He autocrossed it a few more times, did the first part of a rotary conversion (take out all the parts that aren't a rotary), lost access to his borrowed work space and then sold the shell. It is now living a much better life - it became the Targa Miata.
I have seen a lot more carnage at CA track days than I have elsewhere. It's a cultural thing from what I've seen, a lot more time trial thinking combined with a certain amount of bucket list checking at the events I attend. Things are a lot more chill at a CO track day and I can't think of the last time I saw a car get wrecked here. I've certainly never had someone dive-bomb an apex here but I've learned to expect much more aggressive moves in CA.
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
So as someone who road raced motorcycles first I obviously have a much different definition of what scary is. Because of the two wheeled experience I'm keenly aware things can go south very quickly. As a downhill rider I suspect you're in the same boat. If perchance you are one of those people who truly has no fear than a track day is probably not a good thing to be doing in a street car with no cage or possibly at all.
A lot of people grossly misunderstand the purpose of a track day; it's only purpose is so that you can drive your car much faster than you could ever do on the street...............that's it.
Sure there is the instructor component but that is as much about safety as it is about giving people the best possible experience. If you just turned new drivers loose, we'd see a lot more repeats of the poor Vette owner.
On the rare occasions that I'm not driving my race car I drive fast enough to have fun but slow enough to have a good margin.
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